State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

@baroquehavoc. I don’t think so. Even I have more than that

I personally would like to live in a world where your sex is only important for medical/reproductive/sexual compatibility reasons and gender isn't an issue anymore. But I don't see that happening any time soon.

As it is, people should be allowed to express themselves in a way that feels right to them, provided it doesn't hurt anyone. If someone identifies themselves as a trans woman, then absolutely, I will respect their pronouns, whatever the setting. I will not be asking them uninvited personal questions and I will respect their choices as far as presentation/hormones/surgery. I will listen to their own thoughts and feelings on their experiences and respect that. If they are generally perceived in public as a woman, I can acknowledge that they experience misogyny.

I don't think trans people should be discriminated against on the basis of their gender. This is where it starts to get a bit more complicated. There are certain situations where I think it is acceptable for someone to request an AFAB* (assigned female at birth, to use the current terminology) woman. For example for smear tests or psychotherapy. This is not because I don't think trans women can be self aware or because their lack of personal experience with something like a smear test means they must lack empathy. It's because unless they transitioned at a very early age, the chances are they will have some male secondary sex characteristics. Many women directly or indirectly have experienced male violence. Trauma does not care what someones gender identity is, because it bypasses the logic centres in the brain and goes straight to 'fight or flight'. Therefore a woman who has been in any way traumatised by a man has the right to not be treated by someone with male secondary sex characteristics, regardless of gender. Especially when she is in a vulnerable position. It is unfair for anyone to question a woman who requests 'female only' treatment, the only person who gets to decide whether her feelings and experiences are valid is the woman herself. A person doesn't have to have experienced severe violence from a man to be uncomfortable around men.

I think that is the problem with self ID. In principle, fine, a person should be able to be respected as they are. However, in this case it is made more complicated because women are an oppressed group and have good reason to fear men/people who have male secondary sex characteristics. In the case of single sex bathrooms/changing rooms, I think the solution is for there to be more unisex areas/single cubicles (in addition to single sex areas). I understand that as a trans woman it must be hurtful to be excluded from female areas, but it is unfair to potentially trigger women who use those areas to be away from men (see above on trauma). I think that a system where trans women who 'pass' as women can use female areas while those who don't 'pass' can't is an even more unfair set up.

With regards to women's groups, safe spaces and shelters, I think there is room for both those which include trans women and those which do not. I think there needs to be an acceptance from TRAs that female biology IS important. AFAB people are oppressed BECAUSE of their biology, not just because they are seen by the world as women. I think that women's groups which are only open to AFABs (possibly or possibly not including trans men) should not be called transphobic. Just as it is okay for trans women to want spaces only open to trans women to share their common experiences, which AFAB women do not share, so it is okay for AFAB women to want spaces to share common experiences trans women do not share. I think it's important that trans women have spaces in domestic violence shelters, in the ideal world there would be more LBGTQ shelters to accommodate this. Or even spaces in existing women's shelters. I don't think it's fair to ask women fleeing domestic violence - usually at the hands of a man - to share a space with someone who has male secondary sex characteristics and call her out as transphobic if this makes her uncomfortable. The women is at her most vulnerable and as previously mentioned, trauma doesn't care about gender identity. Both the trans woman and the AFAB woman's needs must be protected in that situation. The needs of the trans woman should not trump the needs of the AFAB woman. The AFAB woman should not have to 'deal with it' if she feels triggered by the trans woman. Instead a separate space should be found for the trans woman, where they will have access to support.

Like all women trans women come in different shapes and sizes and it's important not to tar them all with the same brush. I think it's important that trans women, particularly those that transitioned after puberty have the self awareness to realise they have had what might be termed 'perceived male privilege' prior to transition and at times when they are seen as men. It is important to acknowledge that an AFAB woman being wary of a trans woman is not necessarily transphobia, often it's simply years of experiencing misogyny put her on her guard around anyone with male secondary sex characteristics. I think it's important to listen to each other. AFAB women cannot know first hand what it is like to be a trans woman or what harassment they experience and vice-versa. It's important that people aren't shouted down when expressing their own experiences. I hope that we can reach a point where we talk calmly and realise actually, for the most part we are on the same side and the far, far bigger issue is male violence, which affects ALL women.

Appologies for length!
*I hope nobody is offended by the term 'AFAB' I'm using it as I know people here dislike the term 'cis', but 'women' in this context can be read as ambiguous.

I don’t think what MumsnetReports are doing is terribly relevant

I'm not on twitter and I don't know much about it, but is 284 followers considered a large audience?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth You would think Helen would try to change her posting style wouldn't you?

Children should be supported to live their lives within the bodies they have, not lied to, mutilated and sterilised.

@Sparkduchess has nailed it.

Pratchet I don't know if I have or haven't and don't care enough to look.

To add to my post above:

Transing children will leave them sterile and dependent on drugs for the rest of their lives. Leave our kids alone, they shouldn't be dragged into this cult.

Lied to: told they can change sex
Sterilised: by puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones
Mutilated: by unnecessary surgery on what was a healthy body

I don’t think what MumsnetReports are doing is terribly relevant. It’s an attempt to silence MNers opinions with their own. There’s no room for conversation or debate so it’s a pretty pointless concern. In the grand scheme of things it’s irrelevant.

Helen of TransGrassTwitter is so desparate to validate her decisions re. her child, she harasses women online, attempting to silence them and shut down any discussion. Her decisions and hers alone are permissable: her right to choose the medical care that she decides is right and her right to impose those decisions on the rest of us.

The answer is No, Helen.

I've been screenshotted but I think apart from that, they must be desperate for someone to be offensive. Women - always such a disappointment.

My daughter has a FTM transitioning friend and thinks it is ace I remember to call him him. I have no problem using preferred pronouns, as I think that is just respectful but then he is respectful to me and my beliefs . I do believe women's spaces should be kept for biological women and that no one can become a woman just because they say they are. There is no such thing as a female brain. I think women need to fight back to ensure they are not erased and at the moment The TRA movement will probably destroy itself though as the tweets from the NUS conference show. I am not CIS.

@MumsnetReport

You screenshotted me for transphobia. I said:

Maybe I'll be proven wrong on this, but I don't think that anyone is born in the wrong body or the wrong gender.

So at the moment there doesn't seem to be scientific evidence for someone being born with a gendered brain in the wrong body. I said I was open to new evidence. Transphobic?

I also said:

Someone who has surgery and hormone treatment deserves to be treated with respect for their condition.

Treating people with respect is transphobic?

It seems that anything that goes against the rigid party line is 'transphobic'.

OK, here's mine, and the background against which I have these views.

1. A member of my family is transgender and is in a serious, married, relationship with another family member. I am supportive of this relationship as both parties are respectful of each other and treat each other appropriately as far as I am aware.

1. I support their right to be transgender but am not 100% comfortable with it yet. They have not asked me to call them by their other name and they do not dress as their chosen gender in our home; we haven't discussed this, it is just the way it is happening for now.

1. I also support the rights of women to have safe women only spaces. I support the rights of men to have safe men only spaces. I do not expect that I will find people behaving inappropriately in areas where people are changing; for example if young children are in a changing room I do not expect adults to walk around naked.

1. If somebody genuinely is transgender and respects the rights of their chosen gender then I will tolerate them in the areas reserved for people of that gender. I expect that they will, like all users of the space, treat other users with respect.

1. I will not accept any hate crimes directed at people according to their gender. TRAs are behaving unacceptably if they direct hatred at biological women. Biological women are behaving unacceptably if they direct hatred at transgender women.

I think that is about it.

Many of the posts on this thread are being screenshotted on Twitter.

For the record, I believe biology is immutable and sex change impossible. People should feel free to present as they wish, but sex segregation for reasons of safety and dignity is important.

The whole TRA is regressive and reductive - girl = make up and ‘girl brain’, boy = trousers and ‘boy brain’ is ludicrous. Gender is a spectrum and most of have traits of stereotypes from both sides. I am a woman who rarely wears ‘womans’ clothes, works in finance and can fix a washing machine. By current definition that makes me difficult to define but I am very definitely a woman.

Children should be supported to live their lives within the bodies they have, not lied to, mutilated and sterilised.

Quite.

I have the utmost respect for anyone who engages in conversation and encourages debate. There are many threads started by transgender Mumsnetters.

For those policing us and telling tales? Less so. There’s no substance to the accusations of transphobia and bigotry. It’s scaremongering to try to silence. I’ve no interest in that.

Yes, they're watching. Don't be cowed. See how people have different views. See how they express them cleanly. Bear witness to the lack of death threats. Lo how different views are expressed without people being encouraged to choke on a dick. waves to mumsnetreports

I accept someone being deemed legally a woman without literally being a woman, just like a company can be legally a person (but you couldn’t take it to the pub). Alongside that they can be socially a woman, and I’ll respect that. But literally a woman, exactly like me? No. This comes from respecting the trans people I know who I simply could not just invalidate and insist they are in NO WAY what they say they are, but also from simple logic and the acceptance that words have meaning. ‘Woman’ just cannot be, across the board, some vague woolly concept you get to opt in and out of (sometimes on alternating days )

I worry a lot about young girls who think they’ve found a way to trade up to the superior state that is masculinity.

I find it a difficult subject as there is a lot of nuance that’s being pushed out by extremism - amazingly it’s YEARS since I first heard someone denounce FGM as a transphobic, and that kind of crap makes it very tempting to draw hard lines and start saying I’ll never call a male person ‘she’.

However I don’t believe the only way to fight extremism is with extremism. My only hard line is - if you’ve ever put a penis somewhere it wasn’t wanted (ie you’ve been convicted of rape) you don’t get to identify as female, in any way, ever.

I have a base-level of respect for any person I meet. Therefore, if you tell me your name is Sarah, I will call you Sarah.

I will not, however, change my language and how I refer to myself to validate your identity. I am not a 'cis' woman, I am a woman.

If you berate me and denigrate me because I refuse to use the language you prescribe to me, you will lose my respect.

You do not own my language. You have no right to tell me how to speak. I have the right to describe my biology in any way I see fit - it is mine.

Is this where we collate everything that's needed for Trans activists to target specific accounts more easily?

Handy if you think about it

Quite. My thoughts exactly.

Lang Yes, I think class is a massive issue here. Poor women have always been disposable

Thank you all for the flowers. I wasn't trying to elicit sympathy, just that the background is fundamental to my view on women only spaces.

I also think that a lot of women on mumsnet (and in general) live very sheltered lives and cannot imagine a life like my sister's, so don't really understand how vunerable some women are. Things that are self preservation for them, are considered bigoted on here.

Legislation should always look at the impact on the most vulnerable and ensure that protections are put in place. The fact that this isn't happening is clear evidence (to me at least), that the policy makers see trans-women as men.

HubrisComicGhoul - and yes, it's the most vulnerable, most voiceless women who will suffer most. Women like your sister; women in prison; women in locked mental health wards. I see extremist transactivism not only as misogynistic and homophobic, but also extremely classist.

Most of the posts explain how I feel about it.

I’m angry that so much energy is being put into attacking women and their rights.

I’m furious that there is no call on men to share their spaces or change their behaviour. Why do people think we have women only spaces?

I’m bewildered by the fact that there is no call for support for people suffering from gender disphoria to provide better mental health and medical provision, for both transition and future health care.

I’m wondering how the hell anyone has time to police Mumsnet, screenshot posts and report them. Go fight a meaningful battle. The majority of us would support specific transgender rights if they were being fought for. But they aren’t. Move over or fuck off is the message being sent to women.

The whole thing is a farce fuelled by entitled misogyny.

If my son came to me and told me he felt he was female, I’d support him with every cell of my being. I’d do everything I could to help him find peace with who he is or felt he should be. If ultimately it meant drugs and surgery, that would be at the end of a very long road into adulthood. But I would not let anyone else pay a price for it or be compromised by it.

WidowWadman, what is your opinion about children (particularly young teenagers) sharing sleeping accommodation on school trips and scout/guide camps?

Should there be segregation by sex, by gender, or none at all?

Is this where we collate everything that's needed for Trans activists to target specific accounts more easily?

Handy if you think about it.