State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

I find it hard to state my views because my views are still half formed, despite spending hours and hours thinking about all this.

I differ from most feminists posting on this board on gender - I agree that it's a social construct, but I've seen some women say that gender doesn't exist or that it's some kind of imaginary bullshit, and that's not how I view it. I think it's real and tangible and quite powerful. Like some others here, I'd like to abolish gender stereotypes and I'm not sure that some of the trans activists on twitter share this political goal. Many trans people in my everyday life hold views that I find more palatable.

I'm happy to say that trans women are women, because I don't think of biology as a set of facts that can define 'woman' but I can't reject biology as meaningless. However, this means I'm taking a position where 'woman' is fluid and difficult to define. I'm ok with that; I know others want clear definitions.

But then I read some stuff on the internet written by trans women and I feel like I need a translator. I simply don't understand what they mean. And I think this is because of my belief that gender is a social construct: there are some women who don't 'sound' like women, and I unconsciously recategorise them in my mind. Because by not caring about women's concerns they 'sound' like men. I desperately want to be inclusive and intersectional and kind and respectful but I'm not actually willing to put aside my concerns about safety and justice without real answers to my questions. #nodebate is of course unacceptable.

So I'm still in an incoherent place. I want to accept trans women as women but I have many questions and hardly any answers.

I think notions of gender are backward and harmful to both females and males. I am open mouthed to see them reinvented as progressive, let alone enshrined in law. It has made me realise human beings are not nearly as smart as we think we are.

I support anyone's right to believe whatever they want and to live however they want, as long as it doesn't impinge on anyone else's rights. I am concerned about the privacy, safety and dignity of women and girls, and about crime and health statistics, employment legislation and women's sport. I am shocked at how women are being vilified and silenced for trying to discuss how a change in law might affect them.

I might have fewer concerns were it not for male violence and the craven failure of decent males to acknowledge or take responsibility for it.

Wavey wave to the twitter crew.

In case you wish to take offence - the Rainbow Fairies in my current username refers to the well known series of a ridiculous number of kids' books about an army of fairies which only ever have one bloody plot among the 9 bajillion books of them and which numerous parents have been forced to endure trudges through Twatface the Toenail Fairy or whatever else over the years.

Just clarifying that for your screenshots in case you wish to claim it's some statement about how everyone's lost the fucking plot completely with all of this.

I know the thread has moved on, but I wanted to add my own position on trans issues/self ID.

My position is that:

1. Sex change is impossible.

2. It is unethical to pretend to be something you are not and to pass among others of that kind as though you are one of them and to attempt to deceive them, especially if they are a disadvantaged group and you are taking or using specific facilities intended for them (the only exception to this is in conditions of structural inequality where your group is barred from power e.g.- for a serf to scrub up and pretend to be a Lord to avoid oppression).

3. It is disrespectful and taking liberties to ask people to pretend to think or see something they do not think or see.

4. It is authoritarian and oppressive to seek to compel people to pretend to think or see something they do not think or see. It can cause extreme mental distress and should be recognised as a form of domination, control and bullying.

5. All people who collude with deception are morally culpable.

6. Body dysphoria is a problem of the mind, not the body.

7. Unnecessary medical intervention and body morphication of healthy/normal bodies is unethical, however if adults want cosmetic surgery/ medical intervention, etc I wouldn't try to stop it, but there should be some consideration of mental health of the patient (ie- a psychotic person shouldn't be offered surgery).

8. Unnecessary medical intervention and body morphication upon healthy/normal children is extremely unethical and should be illegal.

9. It is unethical for politicians to give hard-won resources from one disadvantaged group to another eg- women fought for their spaces, disabled people fought for theirs. Any new groups who need specific facilities need to fight and win theirs too.

10. Laws must be based in truth not lies and the GRA is unethical as it allows people to falsify legal documents (ie- birth certificate).

11. Societies should progress in such a way to peacefully thrive while allowing truth, diversity, equality, freedom and justice to exist. This means that authoritarianism cannot persist.

Why does handwashing need to be sex segregated? Never quite understood that

I make a distinction between transexuals, i.e people with dysphoria, and people who are quite happy with their sexed bodies but claim to be trans. I have compassion towards the former, I see the latter as having a belief system I don't happen to share.

I welcome gender non-conformity. Nobody should feel obliged to dress and behave in a certain way just because they were born with a particular set of reproductive organs.

I don't see that this new trans movement is about pushing boundaries and breaking gender stereotypes, it seems very regressive and conformist. The implication of this gender identity ideology is that most women are programmed to behave and think in a specific way, a way that is completely distinct from the way men think and behave. This isn't progressive thinking, this is the same old shit women have been battling against for centuries. It wasn't so very long ago that women who were skilled mathematicians or scientists were told they'd got a 'mans brain'. And people do still believe that men have brains like a set of boxes, and women have brains like spaghetti.

The belief that men and women have different brains, different ways of thinking, different natures and identities has been around for thousands of years and it has always been used against women to stop us being equal participants in all areas of life. Trans ideology has made sexism socially acceptable again.

I still do not know how you'd know about being deleted.

Is there a way to know this other than endlessly going back through threads in which you've posted?

Fabulous post Red

I still do not know how you'd know about being deleted. So how would you know if you are a repeat offender?

Helen is trying to justify her flawed decisions and force the consequences of it onto the rest of us.

She can fuck right off

Posting on Twitter is just showboating, MN is an open forum. Helen is just trying to pressure MN to close FWR.

Well my post of 0820 has found its way onto twitter. Let's see how long it lasts here

The problem with gender neutral spaces even if they do have floor to ceiling walls/doors is, it's been shown men have accessed them and installed mini cameras. Allow men in, you invite the possibility of this kind of thing.

I'm not on twitter and I don't know much about it, but is 284 followers considered a large audience

Its enough to be a pain in the arse to MNHQ.

Plus its the retweets that come off those initial followers. The echo effect of twitter.

Men can never be women. They can id as the brightest unicorn on the rainbow, but they will never be women.
Men have no right in women's safe spaces. It's not just about bathrooms and changing rooms, it's about refugees, women's wards, medical care and all the segregated spaces that are there for a reason, ie, as a result of male violence.

Self ID is the biggest fraud of all time. It's just another way to fuck over women and I'm not standing for it.

I also think that puberty blockers should not be given and no one should be allowed to start the process until the scientific age when the brain is declared "fully developed" (around 23 years of age) if then after extensive counselling and mental help the person still want to trans then they should have that option. But they will never be the opposite sex.

No competing in sports for the opposite sex, no taking jobs earmarked for the opposite sex, no telling women how to be women.

If I were anorexic no one would be pushing liposuction on me......why treat any other body disphoria differently?

I hope they never get rid of sex segregated toilets. I feel sorry for women already suffering mixed sex loos. God it must be bloody awful.

My view is that all public spaces are unisex with individual cubicals with floor to ceiling doors and walls. All nesssesary facilities for changing tampons Hans washing etc available within the cubical. If that is not possible due to funding sex segregation is maintained 3rd space for those who don't wish to use the sex segregated facilities All other sex segregation is maintained such as healthcare and prisons Everyone rights maintaied

I think you are right Iam but your post won’t be screenshotted!

The only other thing I would add is to say the very root of the problem (Male violence, the patriarchy and misogyny) should be the focus of the argument. For transwomen and women to stand together on this would be progress.

Many do, and that is often reflected on MN. It’s just not as much fun to shout about.

They’re quick off the mark, I’d been screenshotted almost immediately 🙄

Well, she thinks that sex can be changed spontaneous, so would take a guess the wires have been shorted in her head

@baroquehavoc - to be fair this is the third attempt at it. She has locked herself out of one grass account and deleted another one in error. Impressive!

Not wanting males to touch your genitals after being assaulted does not bypass the logic centre really. Its not irrational. It's the most logical thing in the world.