State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

Has anyone seen this video? It is absolutely fascinating, describing how come trans issues have made such enormous progress in so little time (hint: it's to do with who has the money )

Really good post Red, I've been thinking much the same myself recently, it's not just the one thing, it's part of a bigger picture which seems to include the idea of massive social change. I worry about sounding like I've overdosed on the YouTube conspiracy section sometimes but certainly I would say there are economic factors at play and naturally at the top of that hierarchy are very rich powerful males. To what end is all this? Population control could be one factor, social engineering?

As you pointed out social change should be beneficial and unforced and it doesn't appear to be, it's not the same as gay rights which has come as a more holistic change. If social conditions were such that women could share spaces with men with absolutely no threat of violence and each sex could present as they wished (dress/hair etc) without comment maybe we would be at the point where we had tackled the social change necessary - but we're a long way from that yet. Forcing something through that 'appears' to tackle it but is actually a step back from that is not really the way to go.

The medicalisation factor is a path that is being pursued to eagerly and without thought/care. We've seen what happens when drugs are put on to the market without sufficient testing/trials, it has consequences that stretch decades and even over generations into the future. Do we really want that?

I feel that more and more I'm turning into one of these off-grid, prepper types because I'm not sure progress is 'progress' and social change is being forced.

I believe nature/science are the way they are for a reason and it's not necessarily ours to try and change that, we need to work with what we have.

These drugs fuck up kids' bodies and TRA say that kids can understand and make this choice that will affect them for the rest of their lives. Fuck. That. Shit.

We can say that children who are given puberty blockers are being given a very strong cancer drug off label and that 'gender oractioners' are very open about the fact that they are experimenting on children. And that taken cross sex hormones plus puberty blockers will lead to sterilisation and very likely loss of sexual function. And that TRA want their own transition 'demedicalised' we know that for some reason they are obsessed with getting kids on these drugs

I am a scientist.

The more instruction we get from MN mods the more confused I get.
I have very strong opinions with regard to child abuse and what I view as transitioning away the risk of the gay in children for fun and profit.

I am seething with rage at MN mod position that to protect the children they mod team will not allow any discussion of what is being done to these children as it is deemed salacious and sensational.
No shit, MN. That is what we are effing pissed about.

Self-ID- not necessarily anti as it refers to the procedure for getting a GRC only. However I would be concerned if it meant trans people will not get adequate medical support as a result and for that reason I am not fiercely pro it.

Sex-based exemptions under the Equality Act- yes, I am very keen that these stay and that policy is coherent and consistent as to when it is permissible to exclude on the basis of biological sex.

Sports- absolutely not in favour of trans women competing at professional level. Unsure about the new testosterone guidelines because they seem to exclude women with naturally high testosterone which seems unfair too.

Trans children- no surgery or hormones until age 18. But children should be free to present how they like and if they want to call themselves a boy/girl, I don’t think it’s good to stop them, but no permanent body modifications.

Pronouns- not getting worked up about this and most of the people who are very vocal on this make exemptions for trans women they like which entirely weakens the argument. I will use preferred pronouns.

Arguments with TRAs constantly calling them men etc- unhelpful and detracts from the issues hugely. I would prefer not to engage in the arguments raised by TRAs and they certainly don’t represent the whole trans community.

if someone has male genitals/male appearance/male behaviour then they are male-i will accept they are trans and on a personal level will address them according to their preference, however i will not be forced to agree they are a woman and that they should have be able to access womens spaces which have been set up for biological women because this was needed either for privacy and dignity, safety, recovery, fairness, a safe space from men.........

I mean (get to the point woman!) that I don't think deletions are really helping here.

I am not CIS. I neither know what this new title dreamed up by the posh privileged means, and nor do I accept it. I am a woman - always have been, always will be.

As a black woman I have more than enough experience of those who want to trample over my rights, to discriminate, and appropriate. To decide just like that, they can stick a label on me and tell me how I should think feel and act accordingly to their criteria that they arrogantly created without consulting me.

I accept this from nobody. Don't use your cosy privilege to undermine me.

You want your rights and that's absolutely fine - don't we all. But I don't want equal rights via trampling on others rights and I'd like to be afforded the same courtesy.

There is room for everybody. Don't aim to take up all the space.

sorry yes it is edging that way.

the "bore" for me is the whole meta-debate about the mumsnet mods. Would much rather just read the sodding debate.

as you were.

Careful amazing...

"What a bore...." is dangerously close to 'yawn...' or 'bless...'

bother, I thought we'd made it this far with no deletions.

What a bore....

My post on page 1 has been deleted.

@MNHQ

Please can you amend your Talk Guidelines to include the following:

1. A commitment to empirically verifiable biological science that correctly recognises that the sole reason males and females, men and women, exist is by virtue of the fact that we reproduce sexually and that any definition of male or female, man or woman, must be understandable in light of this, is unacceptable.

1. It is unsayble to state that there is no such thing as trans. That it is not real and that it is delusional thinking.

1. It is unsayable to state that a man, no matter what he does to himself or believes about himself can never, ever become a woman.

1. It is unsayable to refer to the documented, publicly accessible examples evidencing AGP as the motivation for 'transition'.

1. Yet, to state the contrary positions, and to deny logical, reality and biological science, is perfectly acceptable and is a position that is welcome on MN,

State @MNHQ and stop mucking everyone about.

People can not change their sex; sex is genetics and chromosomes and natal genitalia.
Penises should not be in female spaces.
A transsexual who has undergone "meaningful transition" including surgery can access female spaces, on a pragmatic basis. This convention has been broken by tra's and shouldn't need 'policing' if people respect women's privacy and are able to accept gnc- i.e. so TIM can use the men's.
Children should be allowed to be gnc and, under no circs, should any medical or consistent social transition take place- again, if there's a campaign to be fought, it's about accepting gender non conformity.
Safeguarding isn't trumped by gender non conformity.
No one has the right to demand sex from another regardless of gender id.

I believe, as do most people I know, that Trans can be either,

a mental illness like anorexia, a sexual fetish, or a trend.

There is no such thing as "born in the wrong body",

I believe that I have the right to hold those views, it doesn't mean that I hate trans people.

I see my post has made it on Twitter. No idea why and to be honest reading the majority of the other posts, probably everyone's post made it..

I actually see some consensus in the posts here. Some are harder than others, but overall there's a definite line there TRAs crossed.

Now I wonder if this one will end up on twitter as well...

Oh I also think gender is a load of bollocks and people should be free to wear whatever they want and such without prejudice. Especially children. I hate how everything is 'gendered' these days, even to the point of having pink and bluer kinder eggs for fucks sake..just move away from the stereotypes and let people be people.

I wish there was no need for sex segregation. Even if men did not abuse, rape and kill us in our thousands, I think I would still want sex segregation anyway just due to privacy reasons. There are 2 types of bodies, and in situations where we will be naked and such, it makes sense to separate the two groups accordingly. While we have sex segregation, it makes no sense at all to segregate by anything but sex, surely this is bloody obvious?!

I do not think penises should be in womens refuges, or prisons.

Sport should remain sex segregated.

I disagree 100% with puberty blockers for 'gender questioning children'. I was one of these kids, and am now a perfectly happy female person. I had what I would think would be termed extreme sex dysphoria when I was a teen. I hated the attention my body (and especially my large tits) brought me, and at one stage attempted to mutilate myself to stop this attention. I still have scars on my breasts from seriously trying to cut them off. I would definitely have been put on blockers, and sterilized. I do not think hating puberty is a 'trans thing', I think most kids feel that way and would do pretty much anything to avoid it. Though I am sure that going to the extremes I did is not that common.

I also make the distinction between transsexual people and transvestites, and 'transgender'. I think TRAs do so much harm to transsexual people, along with women and children too.

Personally I am quite happy for post op trans people to use the opposite sex areas. However I also realise that many women are not OK with this. Its a shame that 'transgender' people and TRAs have ruined the honour system that we had going on. As until fairly recently I know noone who had an issue with transwomen using female changing rooms and such.

I also think if men have an issue with female people using their areas, its up to them to speak up. I do not believe that feminists need to fight everyones battles for them. And also, female people on the whole are not a danger to male people. Its just not the same.

I think many 'transgender' people and TARs are hugely homophobic, and especially lesbophobic. I think 'transing' kids early is also homophobia, given most gender non-conforming kids are simply gay as adults, where if shoved onto blockers near 100% go onto transition.

I also think that come 10 years time or so..there will be endless lawsuits from children who should have been protected by those around them.

I have a transsexual family member who agrees with everything I say on this topic too. Infact it was her who 'peaked' me properly.

I have probably missed some stuff out here, but am waiting for my screenshot too

Widow doesn't care about women so you're wasting your breath.

I forgot:

13. It is extremely unethical to tell children lies about sex and lead them to believe that sex doesn't matter or that they can change sex, especially if it leads them to fixate on this mythical future where they can be 'transformed' and that this extreme, harmful, life-changing medical intervention they fully don't understand the consequences of, is their destiny.

14. It is harmful to promote sex stereotypes where people (including children) can start to believe that their body is wrong and needs changing, rather than the stereotypes are wrong and need smashing.

So I'm still in an incoherent place. I want to accept trans women as women but I have many questions and hardly any answers.

I think this is a common position. The liberal part of us all want people to live as the want and to express themselves in a way that makes them happy and confident. And if we all just compromised a little, life would be better for all.

Just ask yourself who is compromising and what they are compromising.

"Because by not caring about women's concerns they 'sound' like men. I desperately want to be inclusive and intersectional and kind and respectful"

That about sums it all up Mip