Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

213 replies

MipMipMip · 05/05/2018 21:09

I've noticed that there have been quite a few comments recently where they feel anyone on here has a single view of the trans issues. It makes it easier to tar us all with the same brush and to whip up hatred in the media.

So I thought it would be a good time to do a single post each with our views. Not to try to convert anyone, just to say what your starting point is. If you want to put in a bit of background info and things you feel influence you then great. If not, also great.

We are a massive group of people and we will have different opinions. It makes us a lot harder to dismiss if we can show that.

I am a single woman, no children. I am lucky enough to have not been the victim of male violence but have seen the result of it many times. I am poor and pretty well educated (although never uni). I have no political home and family go from corbynite to Tory. I am very aware of physical differences between sexes and can be uncomfortable only with a male, although it is not triggering.

I have always used the honour system with trans women and will continue to do so. I am very opposed to self ID and while I think most of the people who would use it are mearly thoughtless I have no doubt some will exploit it. I think taking away the medical element of body disphoria, and separating trans from it, is a mistake that will have a terrible affect on individuals. I believe transition should be as a last resort when counciling etc has not worked.

I think anyone may present as they wish but if they plan to use female facilities they should have a GRC or be in the two year process for one. Surgery or chemical castration should form part of that (although I'm torn as I don't wish unnecessary surgery on anyone but I cannot understand how, if they have BD, they could stand to keep their body as it is). A person cannot change sex but out of respect I will use a female or make pronoun if they wish it (unless talking about issues where clarity of sex is needed). I will not use weird made up pronouns as I don't believe you should control someone's use of language in that way.

I have a deep sympathy for transsexuals, both for what they have been through and for getting caught up with the TRAs.i have no doubt a number of TRAs are very dangerous women hating individuals whose activities are criminal and who should be treated as such. Some scare me and I find the way the world is bowing down to their demands terrifying. I believe that only exposure to the wider world, including that for the majority there is no body disphoria and that there are no genital operations, will change things. I think when that does come out things could become violent and that innocent transsexuals will get caught up in that. I think that a lot of the TRAs will simply go back to presenting male and abandon those who have supported them.

I am happy to support trans women. I object very strongly to being an unwilling participant in someone's sexual thrills by giving them verification when they use the same changing room etc. We have seen evidence that that is happening and there needs to be a way to stop it.

We need to regain separation of transsexual and transvestite. We need to not give up the word woman as we are being erased and losing the ability to describe ourselves. There needs to be seperation on statistics etc and medical needs must be clearer.

No prison should have people of the opposite sex in it. If they present otherwise they will need to be treated separately but women should not be sacrificed. Likewise hospitals etc.

I think the way children are being treated is awful. Safeguarding is being ignored and there will be a lot of sterile people in the future who have reverted. There is a huge opportunity for abuse being created.

I think I have a moral duty to fight this as I am in a fortunate position. I know there are women there who are physically scared of violence. I know people are risking jobs and society to say things and I am proud to pay a small part. I'm scared too but not in the same way. I can speak out and so I do. I am sure elements of my views will change as time goes on. I am trying to keep myself educated and learn more. I hate that I cannot just welcome everyone but I would be doing a great disservice to millions of women if I did.

This is my view, I look forward to hearing other people's.

OP posts:
WantingMuchMore · 07/05/2018 11:37

I think the debate isnt happening widely enough and many many women dont know/think it will affect them. In a team of 27 women, not one of them had heard of, or cared to hear about he proposals to amend legislation. Thier only exposure to transgender is Caitlyn Jenner and those who had heard, dismissed it as over reactionary and a fuss about nothing. That is almost as scary as the actual erosion of womens rights.

Myse1f · 07/05/2018 11:33

I am a scientist.
I am a liberal.
I have a trans child (now adult) and have watched through the years as their struggle to define themselves has been all consuming. They went through 'I feel different...I am bisexual...I am gay...I am non-binary to I am binary trans over the course of the last 6 years: throughout puberty and into young adulthood. I love my child. They are putting their life on hold until they can more completely transition, leave our small community and become who they believe they are. I completely understand why anyone with our family experience would suggest anything to make this process less painful/protracted.
However, I am also very aware that my child's mental health struggles are not entirely due to their gender dysphoria, and I would have been negligent as a parent if we had rushed into gender reassignment too soon. I believe that the degree of psychological and medical gatekeeping and review which is currently part of the formal transition process is very very important. The delays it causes are painful, and this should be addressed, but the process itself is necessary. Certainly once gender counselling began it helped my child enormously and was not, as some seem to believe, merely an underlining of the desire to transition, but forced my child to really think about the ramifications of what they wanted, and do the necessary cost/benefit. I believe that self-ID (without the necessary checks/support in place) is not the ethically correct approach for young adult transpeople, even if it is what they think they need.
I have no problem with using people's preferred pronouns: well, I misgender by accident sometimes but never deliberately and I would not do so.

I would stand with transfolk campaigning for more gender neutral spaces, for better funded clinics and therapy, for more mental health services. I would stand with transfolk against violence, against transphobia, if we agreed on the definition.
I do not believe that one marginalised group's rights should trump another's.
I do not believe that women's spaces should become gender neutral spaces while the men's do not. I don't believe that the exemptions to the equalities act which are there to safeguard women should be overridden by those who self-ID with no assessment of these people in place. I would have no issue with someone who has been through the whole current process to get a GRC entering women's spaces because I know from our family's experience that the profiling and psychological which is done before any medical transition is likely to weed out those without real intention to assimilate. Further my experience with transwomen and transmen of my acquaintance leads me to believe that those transpeople who go as far as GRC are not likely to be pushing themselves into situations where women are likely to be vulnerable.

I don't think that whether or not a transperson has a penis is the issue. It is who they are and how they behave which matters for women's safety. I believe that current procedure for legal transition is robust enough to sort the dysphoric from the transvestite/female hobbyist.

in short:
I'm pro-trans and sympathetic to their distress.
I do not believe that a desire to have long hair and wear pretty clothes makes one a woman any more than my desire to have short hair and wear trousers would make me a man.
I am very concerned about self-ID as a harm to confused people and true dysphorics. I am very concerned about self-ID as a harm to women's safety and the erosion of safe spaces for women.
I will treat everyone with respect and call anyone by any name/use any pronoun they prefer.
I have faith in the medics and psychologists/psychiatrists who work with individuals wanting a medical transition/towards GRC.
I do not believe that all transwomen are women. I do not believe that all transmen are men.
I do not believe that asking someone to define 'what makes them feel like a woman/man' is a reasonable question. Dysphorics don't have a better idea on this than women do: but they do have a strong cognitive dissonance with their own gender which the psychologists and doctors have decided is best treated by presenting as the other gender.
I think that third spaces, some unisex/non gendered facilities alongside sex specific facilities is the way to go.
I do not want women to have to step aside or lose their loos like they did at the recent NUStrans conference. The fact that the young trans-lobby didn't see the blatant misogyny there was shocking.
I think that the angry TRAs are not helping their own cause.
I am worried that the angry RadFems are going to lose us the war.
I am hoping that reasonable moderates on both sides behind the scenes can sort this out for us.

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 11:25

This is straight out of the Marxist playbook. Setup a privileged vs oppressed class. Foster resentment, sit back and watch the fireworks.

I must admit I’m almost impressed as setting up women as remotely privileged has been a holy grail of MRAs, TRAs have managed it almost overnight!

But enough is enough if this goes any further women and children are screwed.

OvaHere · 07/05/2018 11:24

It's weird that so many TRAs call themselves Marxists. If Marx ever wrote an essay titled "How to get your own way by harassing and intimidating everyone while grifting online so you don't have to get a job" I must have missed it.

Grin Grin Grin

AngryAttackKittens · 07/05/2018 11:24

The authoritarianism is certainly striking. I've never seen a group of people so consistently unable to tolerate even the slightest disagreement.

RedToothBrush · 07/05/2018 11:22

YY to this. It's what I said upthread - Glitter Thatcherism, right? I can never understand why adherents see themselves as of the left.

Post modern Thatcherites. Tell them this and many would spontaneously combust.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/05/2018 11:19

It's weird that so many TRAs call themselves Marxists. If Marx ever wrote an essay titled "How to get your own way by harassing and intimidating everyone while grifting online so you don't have to get a job" I must have missed it.

LangCleg · 07/05/2018 11:16

At its heart is this 'collective individualism' where the rights of the individual (identity) over ride the protection of the most vulnerable in any situation (social responsibility).

YY to this. It's what I said upthread - Glitter Thatcherism, right? I can never understand why adherents see themselves as of the left.

LangCleg · 07/05/2018 11:14

There are posts on this very thread that this is some sort of MRA agenda. Which as far as I know it’s not.

I think the point being made hereabouts is that extremist TRA and extremist MRA are just different ways of expressing/promoting male dominance/disorder. I think we're saying that the patriarchal penis may announce itself in different ways but it's still the patriarchal penis announcing itself!

RedToothBrush · 07/05/2018 11:12

What you are saying about circumventing safeguarding/gatekeeping really rings a bell. Is it part of the “we don’t need experts” thing do you think?

Individualism over any loyalty to what is best for society? Maybe we have become so tribal that society has disintegrated so safeguarding etc isn’t respected?

Very much so. All part of the same thing.

'We don't need more experts' is a political exploitation of a known failure in an existing system. Instead of trying to fix the system and work on where it has weaknesses and blind spots to improve it, the mentality is to destroy the entire system.

In doing so it, it exposes everyone to the problems and forces the system was built to protect everyone.

Its stuff like dehumanisation using language that are being used to undermine. And narratives like 'they were too stupid' / 'they were too lazy' / 'they were too uneducated' to be deserving of protecting in some way. Stuff like words 'chavs' and stuff like 'racist leavers' and stuff like 'workshy immigrants'. All this 'othering' which takes many forms. Its driving a wedge between people rather than encouraging them to talk and communicate.

The TRA agenda for all its noise about promoting inclusiveness and equally does exactly the opposite. Its obsessed with classification and putting people into boxes. Its 'them and us' language is stark. It reduces people to enemies.

At its heart is this 'collective individualism' where the rights of the individual (identity) over ride the protection of the most vulnerable in any situation (social responsibility).

All part of wider current politics.

And yes because it is, its far harder to challenge effectively.

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 11:02

Look I obviously am not a natural bedfellow of feminism, but I don’t actually want to see women raped, assaulted or beaten up.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/05/2018 10:55

It's a perfect storm of awful, honestly. If there was just one cause it would be a lot easier to push back against.

OvaHere · 07/05/2018 10:54

There are posts on this very thread that this is some sort of MRA agenda. Which as far as I know it’s not.

I don't think there is an overarching agenda from one place, more it ticks a lot of boxes for different groups and ideologies. Supporting aspects of trans ideology then becomes opportunistic. If you are big pharma then it's $$$, if you're a misogynistic MRA then it's enjoyment over the treatment of women, if you're a TV exec then it's big viewing figures from the latest trend etc....

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 10:52

I’m not asking you to I’m mainly here as this appears to be the place to congregate on this one particular issue. I’m perfectly capable of taking my own actions on this issue thank you very much. Maybe your insights/arguments here have applications in mine.

I’m only coming to this problem relatively recently and it’s easier to catch up by reading what you have all come up with so far.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/05/2018 10:47

Well, if you're concerned my suggestion would be to go talk to other MRAs about what you as a group can do to push back against this. As you may have noticed feminists are a bit busy at the moment and don't really have time to do your organizing for you.

Elletorro · 07/05/2018 10:47

Hi RedToothBrush

What you are saying about circumventing safeguarding/gatekeeping really rings a bell. Is it part of the “we don’t need experts” thing do you think?

Individualism over any loyalty to what is best for society? Maybe we have become so tribal that society has disintegrated so safeguarding etc isn’t respected?

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 10:46

I’ve actually tried to make the case in MRA circles that is a fantastic opportunity to get out and be seen to protect children as the implications of this are really fucking scary down the road and can be framed as a child protection issue.

But unfortunately it’s all falling on deaf ears, I’m afraid too many MRAs are common to garden misogynists who just hate women.

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 10:40

@LangCleg I dunno some feminists are the only ones actually doing anything. A lot of MRA’s don’t care and unfortunately too many don’t like women very much and are gloating. I suspect libfems will be welcomed back into the fold with open arms. There are posts on this very thread that this is some sort of MRA agenda. Which as far as I know it’s not.

OvaHere · 07/05/2018 10:36

I think he means that men's rights activists will take the blame (I'm assuming from the username that's what he is).

Personally I disagree because if there is a woman to be blamed that's usually how it ends up. Feminists will end up with a good proportion of the blame (without discerning between lib fems and rad fems).

I already see a lot of this in right wing leaning comment sections i.e the feminazi's started this so why are they moaning about it. Whilst I don't agree that women did start this in any way - we are not responsible for men's special gender feels, pomo libfem's have encouraged and enabled much of the behaviour.

Special mention also for gay people who will also be blamed in the fallout.

Rad fems might point the finger at MRA's who have seized this as an opportunity but who listens to radfems? If we were listened to we could have put the brakes on this at least five years back.

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 10:35

Well any man potentially. As soon as one man does something wrong the guilt/responsibility for the action seems to spread equally across the gender which wouldn’t be tolerated for a hot minute in any other group.

The equation is very simple for me victims are blameless, innocent people are blameless, the guilty and the guilty alone are solely responsible.

I don’t really have a problem with trans people personally, but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out every peeping Tom, dangerous man out there is going to be emboldened to go out and self id as a women to gain access to them.

LangCleg · 07/05/2018 10:30

I’m just trying to get out ahead of an inevitable outcome. If Self-ID gets passed, rates of sexual assault/ rape will go up. Opinion will turn against trans people, women who handmaidened for it will be forgotten and it will all be the fault of men like me as per fucking usual.

Seriously? I wouldn't worry about it. Yes, there will be a backlash. No, men won't be blamed. Feminists will be blamed (because nobody will distinguish between the feminists who were against this and the libfems who weren't). LGB will be blamed because their orgs pushed the T. Apolitical trans people will be blamed for the actions of the activists.

And men will be doing most of the blaming.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 07/05/2018 10:16

What do you mean 'men like me'?

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 10:13

I’m just trying to get out ahead of an inevitable outcome. If Self-ID gets passed, rates of sexual assault/ rape will go up. Opinion will turn against trans people, women who handmaidened for it will be forgotten and it will all be the fault of men like me as per fucking usual.

RedToothBrush · 07/05/2018 10:05

I am particularly concerned about the medical ethics stuff. It has HUGE implications for everyone. It goes far beyond the transitioning of children in terms of how dark it gets.

Earlier this week I was reading an article on the death of a guy who was 'pharmaceutical hacking' (I forget the exact term they gave it). It was basically about a guy who was 'researching' new drugs outside the framework of drug development. I believe he was part of a group trying to 'open source' and 'reverse engineer' drugs to stop the control and pricing of the big companies. He was in his thirties and had died suddenly. The article didn't give his cause of death (yet to be established) but mentioned he had said he believed so much in his own drug he would prove it worked on himself.

Apparently there are lots of people doing this now, so they can try and find a 'new' generic drug that can make them cheap for all. The trouble is they don't actually test these drugs properly. They just develop them and say they think they have found a new generic unpatented alternative. At best they might 'test' the drug on themselves. Not a clinical trial in sight.

Of course this movement is doing particularly well in the US. (Can't think why).

So its not just big pharma who potentially have big motives here.

We have full on anti-science and/or low ethic movements just bubbling along under the surface. Combine that with social media and no health care provision and you have a gold mine right there. The reasons for their development are of course 'progressive' in nature. Here the big caveat on the entire idea of being progressive that everyone forgets: every social and political movement ever thinks itself as essentially progressive even conservative ones. The whole concept of being progressive is simply about moving society forward towards a goal or enlightenment of some kind or other. Unfortunately some of these movements actually even up taking society backwards in terms of quality of life and equality even if the intent was to do exactly the opposite.

Its not prescription drug abuse. Its not straight illegal drug abuse as we know it. Its exploitation of the desperate and the destitute to be cured of the incurable or the uninsured.

Of course, who will back a movement who actively is working to remove medical gatekeeping? Who potentially ends up being the unwitting victim in doing so?

Its not just about transing children at that point.

If you are familiar with Margaret McCartney she talks a lot about the 'worried well' and how a long of health promotion which is very well meaning and very well intended is having this side effect where people are convincing themselves that they have terminal cancer if they have a bit of wind. But might be too scared to go to the doctor or go to the doctor frequently and get told (rightly) there is nothing wrong with them but they come away unsatisfied with what they are told. And of course they read all these horror stories of how the doctors missed a diagnosis....

You can see how all these forces building up in combination and at the same time, can be completely unconnected and yet completely tied together.

The gentle chip, chip away at protective frameworks in any form and from any direction no matter how noble they might appear on the surface is a worry. These frameworks were built up not to protect big pharma but to protect the masses. The effect might have been to create and support big pharma in many respects, but if you focus on that angle alone, you lose sight of the other reasons these frameworks were created.

Its all about a lack of understanding of the roots of how and why western liberal democracy developed the way it did in terms of rights and ethics which society seems to be forgetting. I think we are aware of how the 'holocaust is being forgotten' but its also about other things that came out of the same social bubble.

Its similar to how social media itself was championed as revolutionising society and freeing us, but in practice our data was always cynically also being used against us to exploit us. Its similar to how Trump weaponised identity politics and we see a mirror in Corbynite politics.

For all its noble intent, because its so unregulated, the best this particular movement becomes is like weaponised homoepathy or faith healing. At worst it works by creating mass Munchausen syndrome combined with potentially lethal drugs. And adults and children alike might be potential victims. Yes its full on dystopian nightmare stuff.

This is why, whilst the trans issues in their own right are huge and scary, it needs to be put into the bigger and wider context of everything else which is going on socially.

Right now, I don't see many individuals nor journalists looking at any of this particularly hard. Personally I think someone needs to have a proper look into it.

Frustratingly I can't find this article I saw the other day about the death of this guy. But here's an article on this open sourcing of drugs
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/9agk9y/meet-the-pharmaceutical-hacker-trying-to-make-open-source-drugs

Oh and btw, its not hard to see how this is very much a far left movement in search of utopia (just like the trans movement).

Of course there are some other rather alarming potential side effects here which I'm sure other MNetters are much better placed to explain and elaborate on.

Much of it adds up to the speed of our scientific and social advancement coming to something of a crashing halt in many areas. Almost as if its the end of an era of huge enlightenment.

That is how I am starting to see it. Neo-liberal capitalism got out of control and became unbalanced but what's working to counter that, has lost just as much sight of safeguarding and safety nets and universal social responsibilities.

I'm starting to ramble now, but I hope that someone gets what i'm trying to drive at.

SporadicSpartacus · 07/05/2018 08:59

Good thread idea. I’ve often wondered where this ‘Mumsnet echo chamber’ idea comes from, as I often find myself disagreeing with posters here. Weirdly enough, it’s all been civil and respectful - almost like we can tolerate different opinions and can talk about them.

I try to steer away from using ‘trans’ in my language, when I’m really talking about gender, not trans people. So ‘peak gender’, ‘gender rights activist’ etc.

Personally, I feel like a genderless being, and the only thing that makes me female is my biology.

I understand that, for other people, their gender and sense of self is extremely important. It doesn’t take anything away from me if there’s a mechanism for this to be legally recognised, ie a GRC. I view gender a bit like any other religious or political belief that I don’t share - it is fine until it impinges on the freedoms of others.

However, it’s very important that it is understood that this is about gender, a belief - not sex, a biological fact. I take the view that not everything in life is about sexed power relations, and my femaleness is completely irrelevant most of the time - but when it is relevant, ie healthcare, sports, attempts to address female under-representation, etc, I would expect distinctions to be made based on biological sex, not feelings or opinions.

I’m also concerned about the genderism and autism connection, as an autistic person myself. I think we need to be careful about painting all autistic youth as victims / being groomed / rigid thinking resulting in gender stereotypes - there are some like that, but not all, and autistic people are as capable of being unpleasant fundamentalists / entitled narcissists as NT people. I am also concerned about the appropriation of autism by genderists who don’t have a diagnosis and have just decided to self ID into my neurodevelopmental disability to be special, for attention or to get a free pass to act out.

Swipe left for the next trending thread