State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

I believe that gender/body dysphoria does exist and is very distressing for those affected - I feel that they deserve treatment and assistance the same Way as we all do.
I believe gender roles are a trap and a behavioural prison - the sooner they're abolished the better!
Rather controversially I believe that if a trans individual has "the surgery" then they should be treated as that sex.
I wholeheartedly believe that their are as there has always been evil individuals who will abuse the rights given to trans individuals simply to hurt vulnerable women and children.
So to sum up, men aka people with a penis should not be in womens spaces refuges, prisons etc.
Self id is too easily abused - a much more formal approach is required to prevent harm to vulnerable people.

Oh and yes I too don't believe you can change your sex. But if someone wishes to change their appearance to the opposite sex they were assigned, it's none of my business.

I think you'll always be male or female reproduction and testosterone/oestrogen wise. I do however feel we have a vast array of behaviours in our minds and sometimes we are not what is seen as traditionally male or traditionally female.

This is to do with society forcing pus to identify as female behaving or male behaving when really we just behave as ourselves..

Mechanics isn't just for men.
Child rearing isn't just for women.
Football isn't just for men.
Cooking isn't just for women.

Girls that climb trees are still girls, just girls that like climbing trees.
Boys who like to wear pink are still boys, they are just boys who like to wear pink.

@NoSuchThingAsAlpha has nailed it here. It's all about who can be the biggest victim. If you can convince the public you are discriminated against, you will be given a protected status. Not to say that this is always a bad thing as it has really improved disability and gay rights.

But to its extreme it's putting others not only out of their comfort zone, but making them feel physically in danger.

Yes some people will just be bigoted and dislike those who are different being acknowledged and of course it's fair enough to challenge them. But when you say that those in the position of victims right majorly oversteps everyone else's it is not equality. The key is in the word - equal.

I'm not against trans people at all. My friend has always felt he was a girl from about 8, but other than wearing pretty scarfs etc didn't act on it until around 19. He now chooses to identify as female so I call him by his preferred pronoun, because within reason I will call you what you like.

I invited her to my hen do. It was drinks and food so I felt it was perfectly acceptable to invite her. Now if it had been swimming or massage I would not have invited her, due to changing room situations and obviously he sports the male genitalia. My partner thought the other girls may be offended to have her at the meal but I thought well it's up to them if they want to come. Turns out she couldn't come anyway.

Her girlfriend wishes for her not to have the surgery and hormones because they have a little boy (expect may want a sibling for him) so friend hasn't done it yet. Naturally it's going to be difficult for her son because Dad identifies as female but looks male, but I don't know much of that process.

However, whilst she still has male body parts, I think it's only right she goes in the men's. Which worries me as she's also disabled but one persons desire doesn't Trump a whole groups. I think she normally uses the ldisabked toilets anyway, which eliminates these issues a little - but obviously not so for every trans person.

I also know a FtM transperson who is going through the hormone treatment. I'm not sure if he has had surgery fully yet, but he has spoken publicly about transitioning. However with him I'm unsure how to do the toilet scenario, because as they are still female they are in danger from predatory and homophobic men (well kind of, as she's still female that makes her a lesbian).

I think more unisex but not exclusively unisex is best option but of course many places aren't big enough to have 3 separate toilet areas.

It's not an easy one at all. I think it's very difficult as someone who stands out in some way. Luckily for me my reason for being different (visual impairment) doesn't come across threatening or liable to high level of abuse.

I think it's a case of yes trans people should have rights to identify how they like but they should not be allowed to put a significant group of people at best uncomfortable and at worst, terrified.

I’d dearly love to be able to say what goes on in women’s spaces is none of and should be none of my business, but looking at how under assault the concept is I feel we have no choice to make a stand here. It’s identity politics gone utterly batshit and we need to draw a line at some point and say no more. It might as well be now.

As concise as I can:

Sex is a biological phenomenon and is defined by a number of well-understood biological aspects: chromosomes, genital organs and so on.

Gender is a social construct for controlling the population. In (most?) societies this empowers the male gender at the expense of the female gender.

The difference is easy to spot: Look at any other mammals and you'll see sex specific behaviour: bearing live young, lactation feeding, spermatozoa production, ovulation and so-on.

In English, the word for a human being that is sexually female is "woman", for a human that is sexually male the word is "man" - changing the words changes the language, not the underlying concept.

Gender/sex dysphoria does exist and those individuals afflicted with it need help and understanding, just as do others with any life changing/limiting condition.

Self-ID is, at best, a misguided political ploy to be seen to be doing the right thing. At worst, it is a cynical, misogynistic exploitation of those in distress, also a convenient vehicle to obstruct the feminist cause and given the UK politicians current track record is probably going to make money for someone.

Women-only space - I don't have an answer for this. If a woman were to use men-only toilets I wouldn't care, but the male/female power balance is tipped heavily my way. I can see why, with the situation reversed, a woman would not want a male in her space.

The "but I can really help at a crisis centre/refuge" argument that I've seen as a justification for "self-id female" is equally true for a non-trans male. And just as in that case, why would a woman ever want to accept that?

On pronouns - if you want to be called Ms or Mrs or It or Doctor or Rev or Cis then I'll accommodate you as much as I can ... but if you behave like a stupid bastard then guess what you'll be called ...

And lastly on self-ID, I bet it doesn't go both ways. I'm sure that if a woman were to go to her boss and say "I now identify as a man, give me my 10.5% gender-gap payrise" the answer would be "no" - probably a long, waffly version of "no" but no nonetheless. Oddly, it's this last one that convinces me that Self-Id is a scam -- if it were real the powers-that-be would be saying "Hold on, we could lose a lot of money here ..." and it would be dropped.

Apologies for failing to be brief.

I'm totally fed up with gender stereotypes I will say that

Strangely, the transgender ideology as presented by TRAs is actually based on upholding gender stereotypes because without gender stereotypes there would be no trans people. It's also seeking to erase homosexuality and I see it as very dangerous to women and children.

I'm not "cis" I'm a woman. I do not accept cis to describe me and never will. Afaic it is a made up bullshit word

Transing of children is abuse

Teach your children about biology before some dodgy charity comes into your child's school and tells them a load of untruths. I've already told my pre schooler about sex organs (use the correct words! Only females have vaginas/vulvas. No male ever has a vagina etc) , biological sex in relation to humans and animals, where babies come from and periods.

When I found out about all this (proposed changes to GRA) I became a PROPER feminist, extremely angry and have told loads of other people about it

Permission: I do wonder how it will all pan out. Because normally NPDs have a 'this town aint big enough for both of us' thing when they spot another one of their kind and seek to destroy them or move them on from their patch or they develop an all-consuming mad whirlwind 'romance' if you can call it that with them- but eventually they start getting scared of each-other, because they both know what the other can do, so they feel they need to get in first before they are themselves destroyed.

How much of the world will be razed to the ground before they turn against each other?

It is interesting to watch, isn't it? We know it is just a matter of time, and that it will happen eventually. I think at the moment, the playground is big enough for most of them, the can keep a bit of distance between them and there are enough loyal followers to go around. But when that supply shrinks, then it will kick off. But yes, a lot of damage will be done by that point, and I fear selfID will sweep in.

WashingUpWarrior: They are 'offended' when I call myself, or them, a cis-woman.

Too righty! If you want to use your 'slave name' fine, but don't go around forcing others to use 'slave names'. It is mega offensive. We want freedom instead.

I don't think I've ever believed that trans women are really women, but at one point I thought that some men were psychologically akin to women to the extent that they were better suited to living as women than men.
I'm not sure whether that hypothesis is right, but even if it is, I'm completely sure that aggressive, intolerant people with Y chromosomes insisting that women agree with them or get punched do not fit into that category.
Some people are deeply unhappy unless they live according to the social conventions associated with the opposite sex. Others just prefer to do so. Some believe they literally have been "born into the wrong body" although this doesn't necessarily involve belief in an immortal soul.
My friend Lizzie, who certainly falls into the first of these categories, and all others in similar positions, have a right to dress as they like and call themselves what they like without encountering the disgusting intolerance that she has encountered.
Even if I am entirely wrong and it is actually possible for a person to be, literally, psychologically female but physically male, it is dangerous to put a system of self-ID in place that could be abused by a predatory man or someone's abusive ex-husband.
It should be permissible to discuss all of this.

My in-laws (who are not white) would look at me funny if I called myself a cis white woman. Sounds like it's meant to be a modifier for white rather than for woman phrased that way.

yes. normally I get SJW cookies for calling myself a cis-white woman. why doesn't it work here? it makes me feel good

There's a noticeable pattern here wherein some women show up and get shirty about women here not speaking the way they'd like us to and somehow interpreting that as us preventing them from speaking. Hard to tell how much of it is being slow of thinking and how much is mendacious fuckery.

They are 'offended' when I call myself, or them, a cis-woman

Well yeah

If i dont want to be called cis then i dont see why i need to make an exception to you calling me cis

Washing, even though I am not happy with you calling yourself ciis, if you want to go ahead. But don't you dare make me and other women, including my daughters, a subset of women. Woman is mot a costume or feelings, biology matters. A lot.

It borders on a level of narcissism that can't even recognise other people exist, let alone matter.
I think that may be why Feminists are so often accused of denying transgender identified males the right to exist. It makes no sense till you understand it is projection, as are most of men's accusations against Feminists.

I think the men here who spend so much time repeating what men have said a kazillion times to correct women who do not view men as the main characters in the story of our lives need to take their wisdom to Datalounge. The men there have been discussing the matter for quite some time.

I was at my daughters house this morning and we were chatting about this, her DH was also there. He looked up and said "don't be so bloody ridiculous MIL, men can't become women, you're just talking shite and scaremongering". I suggested he reads some of these threads and then say the same. My DD looked at him and told him it was high time he learned what was going on seeing as he has a daughter. He looked at my DGD looked at me and asked "is it really true?" I said yes, I saw the blood drain from his face.

I don't mind hearing your female voice. Just so you know though, being female doesn't give you permission to allow male-bodied people into female safe spaces.

YY. Some female trans allies do seem to believe that they can ignore other women's right to consent to males in their spaces.

Washing, Mate, you can call yourself a purple unicorn if you like, but if other women keep telling you not to call them "cis" then maybe you should listen.

If "cis" is meant to mean being OK with all of the stuff that "gender" says about women then no feminists are "cis".

When you say 'my female voice' what do you mean by female?

I don't mind hearing your female voice. Just so you know though, being female doesn't give you permission to allow male-bodied people into female safe spaces.

Sorry, I'm not "cis", just in case it wasn't clear enough how much I reject it!

They are 'offended' when I call myself, or them, a cis-woman. I use this vocabulary because it expresses my view that transwomen and ciswomen are both women, but opponents of self identification do not want to hear my female voice unless I adopt their exclusionary language.

You can call yourself a "ciswoman" or a pink unicorn or whatever you want. Kindly leave other women out of it. I'm not cis, it relates to a nonsensical belief system I don't share, and I find it offensive.

'Scaremongering' won't wash here I'm afraid. Do better.

FWIW I think most men don’t really care about the trans thing, I think since gay men have become a more visible and vibrant part of the cultural conversation there hasn’t been an avalanche of gay men propositioning straight men all over the place (barring the odd #metoo moment), so I do t think we men have much to fear from the trans agenda.

However it’s a completely different dynamic for women I appreciate that, and furthermore whilst I usually don’t get on with feminists this issue concerns all women wether they realise it or not, and I’m happy to mansplain my little pink balls off till people get it. It’s a bigger problem than whose on which side ideologically. Again most concerning of all is how this stands to harm children going forward.

Self IDing as what?

Look I’m not going to piss on you and tell you it’s raining

If it was my post that you were replying to there TEMRA sorry, it wasn't critical or aimed at you, and your posts are not at all the 'ooh look it's raining' type. My post was just the thoughts your previous post sparked. It linked up things I'd seen over the last few days.

I think that this heavy opposition of self-identification is an utterly irrational overreaction that qualifies as scaremongering.

Self-identification is a good thing. Gender is a social construct, so separating it from our body parts is a step towards equality.

Opponents of self-id often say that they want 'women's voices' to be heard. My experience, as a woman with womb and ovaries and all that stuff, is that they only want the voices of those who agree with them to be heard.
I have been met with aggression and ridicule when stating that I am in favour of self identification, but more importantly, the opponents make it almost impossible for me to discuss the matter. They are 'offended' when I call myself, or them, a cis-woman. I use this vocabulary because it expresses my view that transwomen and ciswomen are both women, but opponents of self identification do not want to hear my female voice unless I adopt their exclusionary language.