Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

I've read it.
It comes across as tedious and petty.

Obviously I can't stop you. Wouldn't want to be able to.

But it is making me think some posters are losing the plot on this, and I say that as some one whose been on the trans issue debate on here for 2 years, (name changing), I've written to my mp and been to a WPUK meeting.

I take this threat to women seriously.

But the squabbling, and sticking up for your mate cos she said I said it, type thing, really does look pathetic.

I'm one of the posters being quite antsy on this thread, so I'll clarify a bit.

I think this letter is a welcome intervention. I think it was bloody brave to include the fetishists bit and I hope none of the signatures get too much vicious comeback from it. I hope to see more productive initiatives and will be equally supportive of them.

I absolutely support transsexuals organising together as a distinct group away from the identifarian crew and I am pretty sure that there will be quite a few areas of agreement with feminists - particularly that both groups are against amending the GRA to a self-ID threshold, which is one of the biggest battles ahead.

I don't think that this effort should be subsumed into the feminist agenda. It should be separate from it and both groups can co-operate in areas of confluence.

OnTheList Don't worry about it - honestly. I was bitten by Jayceedove and that got to me more than anything. I stood up for her and she shit one me. Still, not the end of the world...

Anyway, the sun is shining and I'm grouchy as I can't get out as I've twisted my ankle so stuck indoors.

Me being who and what I am does not impact on what you are.

I use the ladies loos. I am in a Woman's Group in my political party. I tick the box marked F.

Ceinwen/Kay - if you are going to post on here, you are going to have to accept that using women's facilities, joining women's groups and ticking the box marked F is impacting on women.

Moreover, you are going to have to accept that, while some women here are happy to regard post-SRS transsexuals as "honorary" women, others are not. And that those who are not are perfectly entitled to express that view without you, yet again, making manipulative appeals to female socialisation like this:

But then, please..... after all this time..... please allow for me and other raddled old transsexual women not being, quite, a man?

Yeah I understand where you are coming from. I knew as soon as I pressed post that I should have just not bothered as it does come across not quite in the way I intended and kind of looks like I am attempting to tell other people off, which I swear I wasn't trying to do (and even if thats what I was trying to do, then that just makes me an asshole really)

I don't know enough about this Sweary/Jaycee thing to comment. Have seen it mentioned but cannot really piece together whats happened, though I did have a look at that Angels forum after reading another thread on it. Its..different. I have kept looking at stuff on there as I do feel like I should be looking at 'both sides' even though I don't think there even needs to BE sides in the first place. I mean, everything was fine before rabid TRAs started their bollocks. We had an honour system going, and everything seemed to be fine anyway. Its only been since some have been so desperate to include crossdressers and such under the 'umbrella' and expect them to be 'treat like' transsexual people that there has been an issue. I wish those at the forefront of the 'merge' (for want of better word) would just fuck back off, though I think that the trust is kind of gone now, if that makes sense.

BabyItsAWildWorld Say what you will, we do still have a modicum of free speech. I am not going to sit back and be gaslighted by TIM's, so you can "FGS" all you like. As I said, I have not mentioned Debbie as she did no wrong, she has stood up for her own rights, and not tried to abuse or use posters here.

My days of sitting back watching this are over. If people don't like it, they don't have to read it - simple.

In fairness to Jaycee, she was tagged in a post and so probably had an email to say she'd been mentioned.

Curiosity would get the better of me in that situation too.

I was around at the time of the Sweary incident, read all the posts here and those linked to on Angels and didn't get it either. Perhaps that's me being autistic.

I don't think this bickering is helpful. I go back to what I said ages ago - entrenching on one side or another just makes it a battle that no-one can win.

I don't think they're in the wrong. Not being grateful is not the same as thinking they're wrong to speak up.

Excuse me: your human rights do not include forcing the world to believe men can change sex. Yours is exactly the attitude that has led women to say ENOUGH already.

Oh fgs.

It's getting to the point with some posters where even trans women who admit they are male and not women, and who publicly oppose self id, still get torn apart for their offensive 'women face' and them using their male privilege to speak out on a issue you agree with, but men are saying it!!!

It's starting to look like some real naval gazing pettiness rather than the genuine concerns we really have.

And all the 'you know what you said' and criptic references to DMs are tedious for everyone else who doesn't know what you're talking about. Either state it clearly for all or take your personal squabble off the board.

Debbie I'm sorry you're having a difficult time as a result of the letter, you really are striving for an honest position in this and represent trans women so well. you and your family have a lot to be proud about.

JC I hope you and your family avoid the hate and focus this could bring. This issue is obviously causing many TW who were quietly living to have to confront some difficult things. I can imagine that's been a process of working out where you are in all this.

Different issues than we as women face, but obviously very tough.

Great Letter! Well done!

Pity Me is actually just down the road from me.

I think..that some responses in this thread are maybe a bit harsh. For a long time people have posted that transsexual people should basically..stand up and be counted. And now some of them have done so and they are still in the wrong.

However, of course its up to other posters how they react. I am not going to say they are wrong or anything.

Honestly, not even sure what the point of posting this was, as it does come across a bit tone policey, which I tend to dislike

Well it seems that Man Friday have also thanked the signatories of the letter.

Man FRIDAY
‏*@ManFRIDAY*_
15h15 hours ago
More Man FRIDAY Retweeted Miranda XYardley
Thank you @TerrorizerMir @DebbieHayton @KJ_Harrison @FionneOrlander and others.
You're all incredibly brave for sticking your heads above the parapet and challenging the #transcult (at personal cost).

( for info; tried to change my name on here from Ceinwen2 to Kay M. and had some help from MNHQ, and I still can't do it. I have dyscalculia, which does not help. Anyway; for Ceinwen2, read Kay M.. Nor does it help when someone makes personal remarks about me moving to Pity Me, which I am sure is a splendid place. I'm just trying to behave like a decent human being here, not looking for anyone's pity. )

There was a compromise, a courtesy,

Human rights are not a courtesy! Women should not have to ask for human rights or expect them as a courtesy and that includes transitioned women. They can demand them, same as anyone else, as they are protected as natural and legal by society.

the medic is an expert in the categorisation system but can never be an expert in how it feels to be that person - has to rely on observation and subjective report.

You can say that about most mental health issues. Depression, phobias, ocd, even psychosis. It's all observation and subjective report. Remember the old Thud experiment..

Miranda back on Twitter retweeting some of the ahem.. feedback.

link

I did like this comment from Miranda:

"Hi Chrissy. I don’t hate you. I just think you’re a prick."

I am really happy that the letter recognised the existence of different groups of people with different interests and the need for clear, open discussion and debate. That is a starting point. Thank you.

There isn't a halfway, or a near as dammit. There was a compromise, a courtesy, an indulgence that women would pretend. That courtesy has been cruelly abused, and transexual makes went along with the abuse until it began to affect them. Women don't owe them anything any more. If we support them, we do it through choice. They have no right to demand it, or indulge in emotional blackmail to extract it.

It is great that this letter has been published in the Guardian. Showing up as 3rd most read in society section too.

Anyone with concerns about gender extremists and safeguarding of WAG usually faces a wall of #nodebate and screams of "transphobe" .Hopefully this letter can change that a little.
Guardian readers need to stop being scared of an Owen Jones tantrum and see that the extremists can be questioned.

I'm particularly happy that the writer made clear that fetishists are welcome under Stonewall's umbrella.

Well done to the writer and the signatories.

Jeez Louise Lass I can assure you that Sweary does not speak for me, nor do I think she has ever attempted to.

You are coming across quite strangely. Not sure what point you're making

I'm of the view that these 'illnesses' are largely trauma based rather than organic brain diseases or chemical imbalances.

Sorry for the derail but it definitely runs in families, so there has to be an organic component - perhaps its latent until activated by trauma?

What word exists to describe ME and my biology that you will agree not to claim or adapt with a prefix?

In trans ideology there is no word to describe adult humans whose reproductive role is to gestate and bear young. Nor is there a word for adult humans whose reproductive role is to produce gametes to fertilise ova.

In the real world there are such words. They are 'women' and 'men'.

LassWiADelicateAir Frantically going through I am a trans thread to find swear, realises it was Spontaneous (as she's already picked me apart for my comments on that thread) then has to come and sheepishly apologise to Sweary. LOL