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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

512 replies

invisibleoldwoman · 04/05/2018 18:20

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

OP posts:
Baroquehavoc · 05/05/2018 18:06

And there are feminist who are fine with self id.

SupermatchGame · 05/05/2018 18:02

A few posters gave thanks which was then followed by an ugly pile on posters proclaiming they will get no thanks from them.

I think it just highlights one of the main divisions on this board.

Some feminists who accept only transitioned women (m2f, transwomen) that have been through a process as women, and welcome them in women only spaces. But are against self-id.

Another group of radical separatist feminists who are not only against self-id but they do not accept any trans women (or 'TIMs' as they would say) as women and do not accept them in women-only spaces at all, no matter what process they have been through.

Maybe not always as distinct but that is how I interpret it.

Baroquehavoc · 05/05/2018 17:59

Lass, you've said yourself that you hide the majority of trans threads?

I know my opinions are different to many here but aren't unique.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 17:56

FWR is full of different views, despite the claims that it is an echo chamber

Really? On trans issues? Seriously ? That certainly is not my perception.

Baroquehavoc · 05/05/2018 17:55

Nope- FWR talked me up the trans peak and then back down again.

I always had you down as someone who could make your own mind up. (And i don't mean that as a dig)

There's loads of threads/posts on here I don't agree with, but I either report and/or don't get involved.

No one is going to agree with someone on everything, and even within an issue, there is going to be disagreements. We aren't the official 'anti self id' lobby, we don't have to show an official unblemished front.

LangCleg · 05/05/2018 17:52

FWR is full of different views, despite the claims that it is an echo chamber.

Yes, it is.

I think this thread has seen most contributors expressing the same views on the FWR spectrum that they have always expressed. It doesn't seem any different to me from that angle - it's just got a few more slanging matches in than the average!

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 17:52

It's pretty obvious to anyone who reads the thread. Well perhaps unless one wants to deliberately misunderstand

Nothing misunderstood, deliberate or otherwise but that is a classic move to belittle any view points you disagree with.

When I see things on here I don't want be be associated with I just stay off the thread

As I said I generally avoid trans threads but then that means I hardly ever express an opinion on the issue.

Southfields · 05/05/2018 17:41

Just wanted to say that Lilliam has already exploded with rage on Twitter about this letter to the Guardian.

Pratchet · 05/05/2018 17:38

Hmm disingenuous much

It's pretty obvious to anyone who reads the thread. Well perhaps unless one wants to deliberately misunderstand.

NaturalBornWoman · 05/05/2018 17:37

There are posters on this and recent trans threads I do not want to be associated with or give any indication that I endorse or support their views

When I see things on here I don't want be be associated with I just stay off the thread.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 17:37

Don't worry, Lass has always thought the GC cause was a bit silly and exaggerated. Her trans unpeak is about as genuine as my appreciation of Shon Faye's comedy

Gosh- I do love it when feminists not only tell women what they ought to think but even what they are actually thinking.

Nope- FWR talked me up the trans peak and then back down again.

spontaneousgiventime · 05/05/2018 17:36

The sad part here is there are some women who would like to put some of us who's opinions they don't like in a box - shut us up and see us bend to their will. I'm sorry, I didn't come onto FWR to gain a fan club and I won't lose sleep over people's opinions of me, I also won't shut up (sorry I'm not sorry). I do very genuinely feel it's sad that that box mentality still exists.

Baroquehavoc · 05/05/2018 17:34

The hypocrisy of all the hand wringing I have seen on here that trans extremists are dangerous to transexuals and the vitriol being posted by some posters when transexuals do speak up is breathtaking.

FWR is full of different views, despite the claims that it is an echo chamber. I think it's unfair to use something that some women say against other women.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 17:33

Lass, are you seriously saying that because some people whose tone you don't like are anti self-ID, you are going to do a full 180 and become pro self ID?

There are posters on this and recent trans threads I do not want to be associated with or give any indication that I endorse or support their views.

I tend to avoid (hide ) the majority of trans threads anyway. I think there is a lot of scaremongering and whipping up of fear. I don't yet have a fully formed opinion on self ID as it happens.

Ereshkigal · 05/05/2018 17:26

Don't worry, Lass has always thought the GC cause was a bit silly and exaggerated. Her trans unpeak is about as genuine as my appreciation of Shon Faye's comedy.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 17:25

What on earth are you on about?

Ditto. None of the letter writers were looking for thanks. A few posters gave thanks which was then followed by an ugly pile on posters proclaiming they will get no thanks from them.

The hypocrisy of all the hand wringing I have seen on here that trans extremists are dangerous to transexuals and the vitriol being posted by some posters when transexuals do speak up is breathtaking.

ReluctantCamper · 05/05/2018 17:22

Lass, are you seriously saying that because some people whose tone you don't like are anti self-ID, you are going to do a full 180 and become pro self ID?

Because that's what all this peak-anti trans stuff sounds like.

Pratchet · 05/05/2018 17:16

Did any of them ask you to be grateful? Don't think so , yet that hasn't stopped several posters proclaiming they won't give any thanks.

What on earth are you on about? Lots of people are full of thanks. Others said there's no reason to be grateful. Someone interpreted that as saying the TS were wrong. Hence my comment. It's called sequential conversation.

Baroquehavoc · 05/05/2018 17:16

Did any of them ask you to be grateful? Don't think so , yet that hasn't stopped several posters proclaiming they won't give any thanks.

Why should I give thanks to something that wasn't done for my benefit? Yes, well done for doing something, but why thanks?

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 17:06

It's starting to look like some real naval gazing pettiness rather than the genuine concerns we really have

Yes.

Not being grateful is not the same as thinking they're wrong to speak up

Did any of them ask you to be grateful? Don't think so , yet that hasn't stopped several posters proclaiming they won't give any thanks.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 16:59

but this thread has lowered my opinion of some of you

Me too. Not just this thread but over the last 10 days or so. I'm fully aware that will not matter in the slightest to the posters concerned who will continue to bask in the glow of being right.

OnTheList · 05/05/2018 16:56

Yes agree. Self ID without safeguards could allow men into women's spaces and that will put women, including trans women at risk.

Self-ID is as disastrous for transsexual people as it is for female people really.

Ignoring the fact that when businesses adopt a selfID model, the very men that transwomen are using the womens to avoid can just follow them right in too, the behaviour of rabid transactivists and their ridiculous demands (that seem to be getting worse by the day) IS bringing on a bit of an 'anti trans' sentiment. I have noticed a shift in tone among friends when discussing this topic recently. Because transctivists are getting louder and louder, and more OTT and blatantly misogynistic in their behaviour. They are making things worse for transsexual people, no doubt about that. As are these 'transtrenders'...with their lady dicks and bullying of lesbian people.

I understand transsexual people just wanting to keep their heads down. but it will be them who have to bear the brunt of the public backlash, which is going to be coming before long. At that stage, transactivists and 'transgender' people will just step back, maybe stop yelling about being women and such. But, transsexual people cannot do this as this is actually their lives. They are (on the whole) not doing it just to be cunts to women, they are not actively wanting to roll back womens rigts (like TRAs/MRAs), they just want to get on with their lives in peace. I have yet to see a transsexual person say that they support 'selfID'. Why on earth would they? They can easily get a diagnosis for sex dysphoria, as they have sex dysphoria. Even the 'cost' issue thats brought up a lot is not really an issue, as the cost is means tested, so you only have to pay if you can afford to. The only people self ID will benefit are pisstakers, and perverts. Also quite concerning is that it was proposed by the Tories, who very much want to slash NHS costs. And I do think that at least part of their motivation was to stop the NHS from 'treating' sex dysphoria. if its not an illness, there is no reason to dedicate NHS funding to it is there? Which will clearly detriment transsexual people, who do often need to transition.

Transsexual people can see this as much as women can. But it will be transsexual people, and women, who bear the brunt of this, if it does go through. I am starting to be hopeful that it really has been kicked into the long grass. But it still baffles me when I see people saying they support self ID, and never being able to give an actual reason for this? Besides 'we should just be nice'. But..being nice is all well and good, even a small bit of thought into the topic though throws up concerns that need to be talked about, not shut down.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 16:55

then has to come and sheepishly apologise to Sweary. LOL

I was not apologising to sweary. I find her posts on trans related threads unpleasant and as I said hers and other's posts in the last couple of weeks have pushed me into anti- peak trans territory.

As for "Lol" , oh dear me.

Wanderabout · 05/05/2018 16:50

Bizarre conflation of belief/current law/people's acceptance/human rights.

What do you mean by human rights? Would you include the right to define and organise oneself in law and society based on biological sex?

whathaveiforgottentoday · 05/05/2018 16:47

I think it's a good letter and a brave move. It's asking for exactly what most women have been asking for ... a debate. Which is why i was surprised to come back to the thread today to see lots of arguing and unpleasant posts. Nobody is perfect but this was a good letter. Can't we just say that and leave it at that.
I've been very impressed and educated by many of the regular posters on the feminists page, but this thread has lowered my opinion of some of you.