Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

Amalfimamma It's a few weeks ago now. I spoke with Sweary in private and apologised (she was very gracious and told me I didn't owe her an apology) but yes, that's what happened.

@spontaneousgiventime jaysis that must have happened when I wasn't on here and I had no idea.

I thought jaycee was like Miranda and coherent.

Amalfimamma Sweary will tell you herself. Jayceedove supported her on here, you know the pat on the head sympathy, then went onto Angels to laugh at her.

@spontaneousgiventime eh what?

OrchidInTheSun Don't feel bad, I supported Jayceedove too. I stuck up for Jayceedove and got my arse kicked. It wasn't until Sweary came onto the thread and told me what had happened. Believe me, their tall tales are easy to fall for.

I understand the reservations some have and the wish to 'go call yourself men'.

I think with most of us you will find that a hard step, simply because we will have lived socially as women for so long in many cases. It would be like transitioning all over again.

Not saying it will be impossible for all. It can be debated.

Anything can and should be. I would not want any limits on what can be included.

We are agreed on the fact that biologically male is correct and that we do not change sex.

We are also agreed that YOU are women and WE are transwomen, so not the same thing, and not attempting to usurp the term women from you or to make you use terms like Cis which are absurd.

We also are agreed that we are not 'more' trans than anyone else and not looking to be regarded as more a women because of that and the best we can expect is to be regarded as possibly less threatening because of our acceptance of reality, the need for therapy and the extent of the steps we are willing to take to move away from male bodies.

These do not make us women but in some ways perhaps less men.

Also that safe spaces for women are safe spaces and that there are lines not to cross even with a GRC. And we are happy to not presume anything.

I think that is a start. It might be that the younger generation will find it easier to go the way you hope regards to definitions.

Oh, I didn't know about attacking swearyg :(

That's shit and I'm feeling all shittily female socialised

Spontaneous - who is that? Jayceedove

Spontaneous - who is that?

Their voices will be listened to where ours are not

I totally get where you're coming from. But if I may chuck in my two pence?

Elsewhere on another internet board, I have seen discussion about this issue stomped on, emphatically, because (an approximate quote but the gist was exactly this): "The only people who should be allowed to express an opinion about the trans issue is trans people" and this sentiment was strongly supported by several forumites.

I don't know how widespread this angle is amongst people out there (I think it's pretty common), but nevertheless one could hope that at least some people might be persuaded to slightly consider our POV, now that a number of trans people have publicly stated their position.

I'm glad that the letter was written and glad that it was printed (especially the Guardian)

Gender critical transwomen are in a bit of a bind: if they are silent, we say "why are they not speaking up?" If they speak up we say "why are they still calling themselves women?" I don't think that we should set the bar so high that no-one is able to pass over in terms of what a "good" feminist ally looks like

And personally I am content with a man calling himself a transwoman, and for transwoman to be recognised more generally as a sub-set of man. It's only those who claim that transwoman is a sub-set of woman that I have a problem with.

spontaneous In my general outrage I missed that gem.....
That aswell....

spontaneous - that too....
This is colonisation of women's intellectual spaces.

When the man who attacked (it wasn't Posie) Sweary from ManFriday is then fawned on here for signing a letter it makes my stomach heave.

I agree with much of what you say TheUterati but I want anyone and everyone to speak out against the TRA bs.

I too applaud those signatories. Thank you

Transsexual friend of mine is extremely relieved to see this.

spontaneous - that too....
This is colonisation of women's intellectual spaces.

I am grateful to the signatories

It’s a very welcome letter. This whole self ID thing does no good to anyone apart from TRAs and autogynephiles.

What 2rebecca said.

TheUterati What's peeved me is the short memories. I would rather give accolades to PosieParker.

I am sorry - but this is the kind of fawning that makes me sick. And part of why it makes me sick is because it is so inevitable as an expression of patriarchy.

It makes me just as sick as it does to imagine black people so utterly grateful to a white person who dons blackface (but, as here, says, but I know I'm not really black) speaking up against racism.

Thank you @Jayceedove & friends, you are all amazing!

TheUterati There is nothing I can say to your last couple of posts but BRAVO

AS LONG AS they don't claim to "be" the other sex, they don't compete against the sex they want to identify as for sex specific lists and sports and they don't insist the other people in that sex use silly prefixes like "cis" and have "privilege" and angrily protest against them

YY. Those are the kind of ground rules I was meaning. And third spaces to undress and sleep. And being considerate of majority female social spaces.