Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

While I understand it pisses some people off that men are listened to when women are not, I truly appreciate what the signatories of that letter have done. If nothing else, it may give some trans allies who have not thought much about the issues from the perspective of women and transexuals pause for thought. Plus I've come to think that the real transphobes are those appropriating the experiences of of those with gender dysphoria. I don't know the ins and outs of what happened with JayCee, but I appreciate the letter regardless of any peripheral disagreements.

Re: AGP. Women (biological xx) talk about male violence, porn, etc all the time and no one actually listens. So yeah im 100% behind transwomen talking about it because when we women do we just get called transphobic and vilified...again. Transwomen here are the gateway for the discussion because patriarchy and misogyny suck.

Actually when Shelia did something similar at the House of Commons when she referred to the parasitism of AGP, she was roundly denounced in some quarters as being unhelpful and offensive.

Agree this is annoying. Equally those who signed the letter can't change that and have bravely said what needed to be said.

I am aware of the issue with Sweary and Jaycee, but nonetheless, I'd like to thank all the signatories of that letter - because they will be listened to in a way that women won't (however rage-inducing that is, it's also sadly true, and frankly if it's the only thing that gets the other side of the story in front of the Guardian's readership, then I'll take that), and also because they will also be villified by the TRAs and we know all too well what that looks like, so to knowingly step into that situation is courageous.

Spontaneous okay.

I am not interested in praise. I only supported a statement. It is not a big deal and I have no intention of suggesting it is.

This is why finding a way out of this mess is going to be so hard if we always have to think the worst of each other.

I am trying not to do that but if you think ill of me then that's fine. You are entitled. You might have good reason.

Won't stop me trying to do the right thing from my perspective anyway. Even if I do mess up sometime.

And if you are reading Sweary I am sorry for whatever it was that I said.

Thank you for your courage.

Actually when Shelia did something similar at the House of Commons when she referred to the parasitism of AGP, she was roundly denounced in some quarters as being unhelpful and offensive.

Yet, here we have a group of men, and 'special men' at that, saying the same thing and they get cookies.

Just like when Julia Long was castigated and WKUP apologised on her behalf for her 'hurtful comments', but MY gets praised and told how brave 'they'/'she' is.

Spontaneaous, I do get that you re angry with me and I am really not looking for that. If I did say anything on Angels that you and Sweary did not like I do genuinely apologise. Whether you believe me is up to you, but I have truthfully been trying to chart a path through this mess which is not easy at my age.

I have enough enemies out there now as I knew I would after today.

I certainly would prefer not to have more on here. But if so, then I can again only say I am slowly learning about something I knew nothing about.

I have never been a part of any activist group and have just g on with my lie quietly for a long time. Coming to grips with the trans activists and the feminist stance on these things in a few weeks is hard going.

But I have really been trying.

I no doubt did make mistakes and say things somewhere not well received and if I upset anyone by that I am truthfully sorry.

Didn't Debbie sign it? Would be nice if she popped in. Hi Debbie if your reading!

Jayceedove have you asked Sweary?

But principally, thank you.

Thank you.

It would be interesting to see how a letter from women would go.
“Further, could you imagine a letter from a group of women referring to male sexual fetishism as a motivating force for men to declare themselves to be women being published in the Graun? Because I can't.”

Funny I don't see any of the other signatories here to 'lap up the praise'. You've been rumbled and you know it.

Spontaneous, they had my real name but as I said earlier in this thread that I used this name there as it is what I use everywhere when talking about trans matters. So it meant anyone could contact me. And also to protect my family from abuse, which we all knew would come. I had to talk to them before I could agree to sign.

I'm not condemning JayceeDove for not signing that letter with their offline name. I took on the LGBT+ Lib Dems twitter account under my real name and it was terrifying!

The rage out there is something to behold.

Jaycesdove You know fine well I don't need to 'enlighten you', you were on the thread when Sweary came to say what had happened. Also, I told you, I'm done with you. People will see what you're all about soon enough.

Spontaneous, please enlighten me as I really do not know what I said that upset Sweary. I am very happy to apologise for anything if I did. As I am not one to be mean to people on purpose.

I certainly do not say that when I first came on Mumsnet I was not taken aback by some of the stark views. It was strange and scary and nobody had called me a man to my face in 40 years.

There were posts suggesting as a transperson I was colonising women and exterminating them like settlers from Europe did to the native Americans. It was so far removed from what I knew that I probably chuckled at them as I did not understand the basis and it was a better reaction than getting angry.

I can see from weeks reading on here where they come from now even if I do not really understand the analogy.

So I might have made some comments that don't sit well with you now.

And, yes, I was trying to find a bridge to build between here and trans people on Angels so I might have from time to time said what I was hearing to look for reactions there .

But that's why I came on here to see your side of the argument and to understand. It is what you often ask trans people to do on here. I was trying to see this from both sides and you can only do that by engaging both sides.

My posts on Angels have generally taken the same line as on here - that's why I became increasingly alienated by them and squeezed out. Anyone reading them will see that and how being on here hardened my stance on things and became more and more focused. And further and further away from the hard line on there. To the point of having to make a choice.

But I was never conscious of laughing at people and I know what I posted about Sweary on that radio show as I went off and read it the night of that thread sure I must have done something I had not realised inadvertently.

Just want to add my voice to those saying thanks and also admire the bravery and guts demonstrated by everyone who signed this letter.

Taking a stance to defend free and honest debate on the issues at play is critically important. For BOTH sides.

Holy crap i only came back when Helen and sf attacked us Yeah, it must be two, three weeks ago, something like that anyway.

Just a little bit more info, it appears Jayceedove has not even signed the letter in Jayceedove's real name. Angels is a goldmine sometimes!

@spontaneousgiventime

Holy crap i only came back when Helen and sf attacked us

Another obe who is grateful to the signatories. It took guts to write and it is important trans people are speaking up and saying these things

Jayceedove If people read your posts on here AND on Angels, you "never mean anything". Anyway, I'm done talking to you, people will see through you themselves soon enough.

I can only guess she misread my attack on the man presenting the show as being on her. But it wasn't. I said she presented her case fairly and well and actually said of the transwoman on with her she had an unfortunate voice for radio. There was nothing on that programme to laugh about other than the idiot man who presented it and went on about Sweary saying all men were violent and moved the discussion away from what it was about.

Is that it? I never really understood from that thread what happened?

• For many years men have identified as women and women as men. I don't have a problem with people who find their one life is happier identifying as the other sex. AS LONG AS they don't claim to "be" the other sex, they don't compete against the sex they want to identify as for sex specific lists and sports and they don't insist the other people in that sex use silly prefixes like "cis" and have "privilege" and angrily protest against them*

I'd go with this and I'd just like to add some more 'fawning praise' for the writers of this letter. Thanks to them all for putting their heads above the parapet when so many (all!) of our elected representatives are avoiding this issue.

People can't help being born men. They have a choice about whether to support women or not and if they do, especially by giving well-reasoned arguments when simply to do so puts them at risk, they get my support.

We are agreed on the fact that biologically male is correct and that we do not change sex.

This and the other points raised in the post plus openness to proper democratic debate are common ground from which a way forward could be found.

This is something to do with a radio programme Sweary did last month I think. Where as far as I know I supported her on here and on a trans forum but I said something wrong.

I really did not intend to. As far as I know I supported her on both places and attacked the man presenting the show.