Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

Well I've been banging on for months about the need for transsexuals to find their own collective voice so I'm really pleased to see this letter and I admire the bravery of all signatories, whether they have used their RL name, an online name they care about, or have signed anonymously. I hope this is the start of a truly effective campaign.

This is not our campaign though. The reason your letter is powerful is because all the signatories are male.

This is a TS campaign, not an add-on to the fight for women & girls' rights. TS have their own dog in this race. We will disagree on loads of stuff. Nevertheless there will be areas we can form political alliances (as opposed to being 'allies'). We can only do that if we acknowledge our differences, then agree to table them so we can fight together on specific issues.

So I won't say thank you but I will say well done

Jaycee I don't know exactly what's gone on between you and sweary but I have also had a spat with you because you have talked about me behind my back. In my case you did it here on MN so it wasn't hard to find. You were given far greater leeway than any non-trans poster would have been given.

Thank-you for writing that letter, I appreciate you sticking your heads above the parapet.

Sadly your voices have more weight than ours, it's not our fault and it's not your fault, It is eternally frustrating

Thank you to everyone who signed the letter from me too. I appreciate how brave you are to raise your head above the parapet and the shitstorm you will unfortunately now have to deal with from the extreme TRAs.

Many times I've seen trans posters on here who disagreed with self id be asked to rally together and speak out. And I appreciate that you have done that.

And yes, it is frustrating that women's voices are ignored, but trans women may get listened to. But I'll take that. I'll accept their support and gladly if it means my daughter will grow up into a safer world.

I'm not sure - is this a scenario that actually happens?

Because on the other hand, I understand why transwomen would feel unsafe in all male environments - they have killed themselves in male prisons.

I have no problem with transwoman feeling they identify as women. I just want to keep my sex-based rights and my own unique identity, language, laws, stats etc

habobo do you think women and girls should have to share showers/changing rooms/overnight accommodation with people with penises who say the feel female? Or do you think they should have the right to choose not to?

I disagree with most of mumsnet, as I think that transwomen should be able to identify as women.

But I think a woman who has undergone years of HRT and an SRS to transition is different to someone who has no intention of transitioning, so interesting that these distinctions are being made.

Thank you so much, everyone who made this letter possible and signed it!! It says something when the men I respect most right now are transsexual men. Thanks again!!

I have thanked the writers of this letter. I have thank the writers of any other letters I know about.

I thank anybody and everybody who is willing to put their head above the parapet in any way. That can be letters, protests, interviews, attending meetings, talking to friends, Twitter, posting on here or just opening their minds and thinking about the issue. Or other things I've not thought of or mentioned.

It is scary out there. It's scary in here too. Right now it does take bravery to say anything, whether you're male, female or trans. And I thank you for doing that.

I don't know anything about any previous disagreements but I do know that I appreciate everyone who wrote and signed that letter.

But as a group with whom it would be possible to negotiate sensible policy grounded in material reality that would make good, enforceable and just law? I can see it as possible with such a group and it never, ever will be with the genderists

Indeed.

I'm actually not sure they will be listened to much more on the basis of this one letter although I do acknowledge no group of feminists would have got that published in The Guardian.

GC Transsexuals have been derided as fringe and out of touch by the TG movement. I think it will take a lengthy campaign by them to get anyone to really start taking notice, especially the LGBT orgs.

to bravery of MNetters!

Certainly also massively appreciate Sweary's input. The ManFriday swimming pool protest was one of the main things that made me aware of the whole issue. I was blissfully /shamefully unaware previously

Thank you to everyone that signed that letter. It was extremely brave of you all.
💐

“Well perhaps they will be listened to because they wrote the letter”

Indeed....

^what langcleg said with bells on jayceedove can't keep churning this up sometimes we have to just take responsibility, Sweary was disappointed but she didn't say she collapsed melodramatic style over it, she's really put herself out there and it would be good for her to know people have her back.

TheUterati - I completely agree with your analysis. That said, I feel strongly that transsexuals organising together in a distinct lobby entirely separate from the identifarians and genderists is a positive development. Yes, they'll get the patriarchal hearing we wouldn't. Yes, that's bloody infuriating. But as a group with whom it would be possible to negotiate sensible policy grounded in material reality that would make good, enforceable and just law? I can see it as possible with such a group and it never, ever will be with the genderists.

!they will be listened to in a way women won't"
Well perhaps they will be listened to because they wrote the letter. Would anyone else like to write a reply?

Another thank you to those who put their heads above the parapet to this letter, as they'll attract a lot of flak from the TRA community for doing so.

Jaycee - I remain appreciative that you are a signatory to that letter. Thank you for doing it.

However, I do think you need to acknowledge that you have not always behaved honourably with regard to this forum and stop being disingenuous about it. We all cock up from time to time. It's not the end of the world and we all move on. But it is infuriating for you to keep on with appeals to sympathy and female socialisation. I really thoroughly object to you doing that consistently on here. You behaved badly with regard to several FWR members and I wish you would simply acknowledge your responsibility for that. Then stop dominating threads with lots of posts trying to wriggle out of it because the people involved are upset by it all over again every time you do.

This is not intended to be argumentative. I just think it would be better if it were all done and dusted and that can only happen if you take responsibility.

The real Jayceedove from one of Jayceedove's victims - Sweary Sweary is behind ManFriday, I know who gets my praise. I'm outta this thread, I've said my piece.

Fermats Seconded.

Yup, if it's a straight choice between ideological purity versus winning the fight, I'll take winning any day.

(And actually I'm still at heart a live-and-let-live kind of person. I may privately find some of what other people get up to offensive, but offence in and of itself isn't enough to worry about - it's when people's behaviour impinges on my freedoms that I get pissed off.)

Plus I've come to think that the real transphobes are those appropriating the experiences of of those with gender dysphoria.

Extreme genderists are amazingly effective cuckoos.

Women
Transexuals
Lesbians
Gay rights
What next?