Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

Actually the reason why women might feel like thanking the signatories is due to the 'sides' in this - it's been painted as TRA v women (bigots, transphobes etc). This is a group of people who are (to the uneducated outside world) on the "trans side" disagreeing with the whole TRA gender unicorn umbrella ideology being used.

To the naive, this letter triggers the need to do a bit of critical thinking. Which politicians aren't doing.

I think you should feel free to be yourself, and will be accepted as such. And yes, people will robustly disagree on occasion. But you don't have to pretend here.

Drat; it was Kittyclaws, not Langcleg my post was to.

Langcleg; You are quite right. It did feel dishonest, and was. I apologise. The "examples" I gave ( a young transman, etc) are genuine. I told no actual "lies", but was aware that I was being misleading. My reason was lack of courage. I was working myself up to leaving a certain transgender website, because I profoundly disagreed with the beliefs of the most prolific posters, and I had seen the force of some of the committed people in the feminist threads here. Although I agree with much, most even, of what they say, and 100% see why they say it, I was reluctant to put myself in a position where I was being shot at from both sides. And then, when Debbie told me about the letter, I thought, am I a transsexual or a mouse? So apologies from me. I wish I have been braver.

I agree with Kitty. I hate all this talk of 'sides' as if we're in a battle. It just encourages people to entrench into their views defensively and attack people who disagree. Finding common ground and acceptable compromise has to be the way forward, surely.

Labour Party has a duty of care it is not exercising. Agreed.

My thanks to the signatories of the letter are because we have been saying for some time 'why don't members of the trans community speak up?'. Now that some have they are getting flack from both sides.

We (as in women) have been saying over and over that this will hurt members of the trans community as well as women. We've been told by TRAs that isn't the case or else they would be speaking up to. Well now they have and, yes, I am thanking them for doing so.

Our reasons for protesting the proposed changes to the GRA are different but that doesn't mean we can't work together to achieve the same aims.

I don't know why the signatories are getting thanked on here.

Because whatever you think and whatever their motivation it is helpful to the cause of stopping self-ID and some people WANT to say thank you for that. You don't, I'm unsure and others don't and that's fine. Some posters here will be grateful that people have put themselves into precarious positions just to write their truth and regardless of why it is helpful to our mutual cause.

I'm not saying women be nice because we know that is bullshit but lets not turn on one another because some people feel thankful. I think for one I agree with Lass (actually it is more than once)

And people keep alluding to things and expecting everyone to know what it means and to just go along with it. I have no clue - I'm not here all the time. My instinct is to believe women but I prefer to judge myself. Like this LangCleg - I think you are a great poster and I enjoy your posts immensely but what is all this about? I find it all confusing (not your fault btw - just me being out of the loop I guess)

However, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't appreciate that you've been all over this forum for a while now, giving the impression that you're not trans but a trans ally and trying to persuade the feminists here into pro-trans positions. This is quite deceitful behaviour and not the way to win allies among feminists. It's certainly not solidarity.

Sigh. I don't want to be at odds with everyone. I want there to be a common ground - although I accept that may not be possible.

LM came out as having a diagnosis of schizophrenia yesterday (initially whilst drunk on twitter). I work in mental health and know many people with this diagnosis (including family members) so I am not dissing LM for that but I'm wondering at the sense in someone so vulnerable being thrust into the centre of this debate by the Labour Party.

LM has come out with several, mutually exclusive, diagnoses. I think our only conclusion can be that - whatever the accuracy of whatever pronouncement made - they are a vulnerable person and the Labour Party has a duty of care it is not exercising. This is terribly wrong and I am disgusted by Labour in this.

(Also - vulnerable and malicious are not mutually exclusive characteristics.)

I thought I saw something like that cis.

I don't really want to bring LM into this for those reasons. I can't see how even this letter is being used as another baseball bat towards a woman. But perhaps best to leave that here.

t.co/CjvqrGDWfL

LM came out as having a diagnosis of schizophrenia yesterday (initially whilst drunk on twitter). I work in mental health and know many people with this diagnosis (including family members) so I am not dissing LM for that but I'm wondering at the sense in someone so vulnerable being thrust into the centre of this debate by the Labour Party.

Ah sorry Eresh. Not very with it today.

You don't have to apologise, I just thought the thing about AS/SB was interesting and worthy of note

This is a TS campaign, not an add-on to the fight for women & girls' rights. TS have their own dog in this race. We will disagree on loads of stuff. Nevertheless there will be areas we can form political alliances (as opposed to being 'allies'). We can only do that if we acknowledge our differences, then agree to table them so we can fight together on specific issues.

I agree. I also say well done to the signatories despite issues on this forum because it is always to be commended when a person puts themselves in firing line. I hope we can form an alliance on certain issues even if we are not in total agreement.

Ceinwen2 I noticed you had signed the letter because I have noted your posts on Angels which are often very reasonable. I can see you will be subject to considerable criticism on there so I commend you and your fellow signatories for being bold.

While I commend all signatories I will ultimately remain on the side of the women on this forum who feel they have a reason to be suspicious. I'm not going to thank you as I know this was for your own benefit too but I will acknowledge that you have put yourselves up as targets and say well done for that - for acting on your beliefs.

I know that some are feeling this is 'playing out' as suspected (whatever that is) but I do like to hear alternative views or looking at things from another's perspective - I feel it keeps MY thinking critical.

Also agree with Ek! It's useful and timely but I'm not sure why women should be grateful.

Ah sorry Eresh. Not very with it today.

Aside mixed deeper thoughts on this letter, I feel it's really important to remember a lot of the debate around this is completely alien to the vast majority of the public. That letter is raising a number of points that many would have never considered, esp regular guardian readers who I know absorb all it has to say without question (I know many people who do.)

If I was new to all this I'd be thinking "oh - this is a different slant on what I've been reading from the likes of Paris and OJ and several other 'woke' people."

So yes well done for sticking your heads above the parapet.

Eresh, no idea. LM is cross with her for some reason. Possibly beat a trans Lib Dem clr?

Yes, Sarah Brown as per my post.

(Rats make the best pets!)

Fionne you are so strong and inspiring for someone so young. An old soul in a young body. I am in awe of you

Have you seen Fionne's pet rats on her Twitter page? Completely irrelevant to the thread but they are cute as buttons.

I am embarased at some of the comments on here and I agree with PissedoffWoman

I would thank Miranda because Miranda was doing it for ages and ages and ages. The others pitched up after women (and Miranda) did the heavy digging.

Oh LM thinks the fact AS beat a trans G person then shared this letter means the two things are linked in a bad way.

Eresh, no idea. LM is cross with her for some reason. Possibly beat a trans Lib Dem clr?

I'm sort of beyond caring tbh just can't get my head round it.

My heartfelt thank you to all the signatories. I applaud your bravery and compassion.

Debbie I am so sorry to hear that you are having a rough time. That is so unfair and unnecessary. I have always thought that you are level headed, empathetic and wise. Thank you always for your intelligent words.

Jaycee thank you. Your voice is so important. I have seen how you came here to talk, learn and understand. I respect that you did this very much. You have risked so very much and I admire you.

Kristina is a name I know, listen to and admire so much.

Miranda I respect and admire you incredibly so. I adore you and your no nonsense way of speaking which is refreshing, honest and often very funny. I wish we were friends in real life.

Fionne you are so strong and inspiring for someone so young. An old soul in a young body. I am in awe of you.

The other signatories I am sorry that I do not know you but thank you.

Oh, and my last derail, I promise. JC I know you’re still reading this. You didn’t upset me, you were obnoxious to and about me. The issue isn’t my reaction. It’s your behaviour. I wasn’t upset because you aren’t significant to me, and I expect strangers on the internet to be arseholes from time to time.

You need to own your behaviour, not your perceived outcome of it. That is what is wrong here - what you do (I was going to write did, but clearly your bad behaviour is ongoing and not in the past). You are not a victim of your behaviour. You’re the architect of it. Own it. Grow up. Fuck off. You can pick the order in which you do those things.

I don't know why the signatories are getting thanked on here. Their motivation is the protection of themselves, not women and girls.

They can see as the transgender definition gets wider and wider and their demands get more outlandish, there will be a backlash. And the backlash will damage transexuals as well as every other trans person.

In some respects i agree with the increasing definition of trans. If someone is not harming others and wants to be part of a community, why not? It doesn't mean they have changed sex and should be entitled to trample all over women. But that equally applies to the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. And I believe that many with gender dysphoria want the right to trample over women and girls.

Instead of seeing themselves as part of the problem, some TS see themselves as stuck between two extreme views. They really are not.