Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

Lily Madigan is angry about this letter

twitter.com/LilyTMadigan/status/992583398748311552?s=19

JustABrokenDoll

My thanks to the signatories of the letter are because we have been saying for some time 'why don't members of the trans community speak up?'. Now that some have they are getting flack from both sides.

I agree. How often has the view been expressed on FWR that extremist trans rights activists are harming transsexual men and women? And how often has it been asked why doesn't the transexual community speak out? Yet when they do, they get the reaction on here from posters like sweary.

"Why is the category transexual being challenged? and what is the difference between transgender and transexual?"

Transsexual refers to someone who has medically and (but not always) surgically transitioned from M2F or F2M e.g. They take hormones of the opposite sex, maybe had breast implants or breasts removed and surgery down below (again not always)

The trans activists want to do away with the word transsexual or make you think it's not PC

Transgender seems to have become a catch all term which includes transsexuals, transvestites (again they want to classify transvestite as un PC and ignore the fact that transvestitism can be sexually/fetish related) as well as new gender identities like non binary, gender fluid etc

Thus we have the situation where a transsexual like Paris Lees is held up as the first trans person to appear on Question Time, and a non binary person Jack Monroe says "hang on, I was the first trans person to go on QT!"

I'm not sure what there is to be sad or embarrassed about. You often see posters say disagreement isn't tolerated on FWR so here it is for all to see. Good. We're not a cult.

I've applauded rather than thanked because I realise the signatories didn't send the letter for our benefit, and why should they - they have a battle of their own on their hands. But it was still a brave thing to do.

And whether this was the intention or not, I don't see how it can be anything but helpful to have voices other than our own arguing against self ID.

terryleather - Beautifully put as always Barracker.

From me too. TIM's will never get what it is to be a woman - ever!

Beautifully put as always Barracker.

@cistersofterfy

Oh I know that, you know that, the world knows that but LM said he 'identified 'as autistic. Not that he'd been through the process of diagnosis

I didn't say the letter shouldn't have been written, and I don't think anyone else has said that either. Just that, to me the letter reads as the TS definition of women is the correct one, not the new self id, and not the 'adult human female' one.

As an aside, has anyone tweeted this letter to Owen Jones? He must be furious that his pet cause has been undermined by members of the community he claims to be top bezzies with.

I'm on the edge of this debate as I dont really follow all the parties involved and find the language used beyond comprehension at times. But that letter is fabulous. It summarises so well the concerns that have been expressed on here for months.

Yes, things have changed a bit.

But things have not changed to the point where the average person buys the views of ..."what makes a person a woman"

"We change; it takes time "

" Doing it all in a few weeks is nonsense."

Never mind the fact that to expect to be accepted and acceptable to natal females overnight is a triumph of blind faith over reality.

Ceinwen
You just don't get it.
Womanhood isn't a superachievement level in a computer game that you reach after serving your time, overcoming obstacles and acquiring points

"Womanhood level :achievement unlocked"

It isn't a matter of proving your motivation and biding your time and demonstrating your harmlessness, and showing your commitment with hormones and surgery and sartorial choices. It isn't about steadfastness until you've worn women down into saying they'll pretend for you because you in particular seem to deserve it. It's not a numbers game where a select few can join as long as the percentages are kept low.

We're not 'natal females' like circles aren't circley circles and water isn't watery water.

Please acknowledge that this is about my right to distinguish myself from you. Not because I hate you, not because you're dangerous, not because I fear you.
But because I am fundamentally different from you and it is critical that this is recognised. You are not part of a common group with me, insofar as sex OR gender is concerned.

Every word I have that distinguishes me from you has been claimed and adapted.

Woman was taken; "she is a woman and I am a woman, she is ciswoman I am transwoman. We are both women,"

Female was taken "she is a natal female, I am a trans female, we are both female"

What word exists to describe ME and my biology that you will agree not to claim or adapt with a prefix?

This conflict will never end. Wherever I plant my flag you will follow to plant yours too.
It makes no difference that you magnanimously agree to prefix us both so that we can be distinguished when you allow it.
What we both know is that you are still forcing me into a common group with you without any objective grounds to explain WHY we belong together and what our common characteristics are or whether indeed I agree with you categorising me with characteristics I don't possess.
And you're using my name to do this.

Your existence depends upon denying mine.

LM came out as having a diagnosis of schizophrenia yesterday (initially whilst drunk on twitter).
LM claimed he identified as autistic until about a week ago.

It's a whole other thread to talk about mental health diagnosis - different psychiatrists would give different diagnoses for the same person. I speak from direct personal experience there as someone who ended up with an autism diagnosis myself. There is lots of overlap and the categories are largely arbitrary.

However, this cuts to the same argument really - whether self-identification is a better approach than an expert medical opinion. The medic is an expert in the categorisation system but can never be an expert in how it feels to be that person - has to rely on observation and subjective report. The person can easily mis-identify themselves as belonging in a category because they only have their own subjective experience to go on and it is easy to exaggerate similarities.

Anyway...

I think the letter is important for mentioning the sexual fetishists. This is something that bothers me. I've been in a sexual relationship with a man who gets a sexual thrill from dressing in women's clothes and from forced feminisation fantasies. I would not want people like him to have easier access to women's spaces under any change in legislation. He is not trans in the sense that most of the 'transwomen are women' general public believe it to be. Despite protestations by the TRAs, people like that do exist.

KittyKlaws No problem. Like LangCleg posted, in DM's today it has been noted Ceinwen2 was posting as a woman trans ally rather than a TIM. I call out deception when I see it.

I'm sad to read this thread. It reads bitter when I had hoped it would be positive. I have no idea about what's gone on with various posters. Sweary was amazing putting herself out there for Man Friday. I have appreciated reading Jayceedove's posts from a different perspective. I'd thank them both.

I'm pleased that all the signatories to that letter have stood up to be counted, and that The Guardian published it.

Their voices will be listened to where ours are not

And? Self ID is "their" fight to be won. A group standing up to say "no thanks" from within that community is powerful.

"Our" fight is for women and girls' rights not be to compromised.

These things intersect on Self ID. So if a group from within the trans community can help in a common cause, what is the problem there?

If trans people were being listened to on the issue of FGM when women's groups were not - that would be different. But on this issue they are within the community being campaigned for, so they bloody well should be listened to.

Wow - well done.

That took guts for sure.

Thanks for the clarification spontaneous I cross posted with you.

Langcleg; You are quite right. It did feel dishonest, and was. I apologise. The "examples" I gave ( a young transman, etc) are genuine. I told no actual "lies", but was aware that I was being misleading. My reason was lack of courage. I was working myself up to leaving a certain transgender website, because I profoundly disagreed with the beliefs of the most prolific posters, and I had seen the force of some of the committed people in the feminist threads here. Although I agree with much, most even, of what they say, and 100% see why they say it, I was reluctant to put myself in a position where I was being shot at from both sides. And then, when Debbie told me about the letter, I thought, am I a transsexual or a mouse? So apologies from me. I wish I have been braver.

Thank you for seeing my point and the apology. I appreciate it.

My beef remains with the appeal to female socialisation that follows your apology in this post. I hope you see my point about this dynamic too, and why I object to it. Because, I have to be honest, I'm unlikely to stop pointing it out.

Generally speaking, I am glad to see transsexuals advocating for themselves as a distinct group. I don't wish to conflate this with women organising as a different distinct group but I do believe there will be areas of agreement that we can work together on.

Here, I also unappreciate that the same someone has been posting on the forum presenting themselves as a woman ally of trans people but now tells me that they've actually been a trans person all along - and so I say so.

Ah - my fog is clearing - thank you for the reply.

For good or for ill, I also have a particular beef with people who make emotive appeals to female socialisation on feminist messageboards and, when I see that playing out, draw attention to it. I realise that it makes some people feel uncomfortable and I also realise that I can be a bit of a hardliner about it so many here might agree when it's particularly egregious but also disagree other times and think I put too high a priority on it.

I can see this - this is possibly what spontaneousgiventime is writing about too?

I don't think you are a hardliner or maybe you are and I am too as I agree with you the majority of the time. It wasn't a criticism anyway I just wanted to understand more so thanks for clarifying.

I'm not adverse to pushing back don't worry. I'm quite comfortable with expressing my position too (but also open to changing it if the evidence is compelling enough). I think that is thinking critically - accepting your position (or my position) isn't always as right as I think.

Like this LangCleg - I think you are a great poster and I enjoy your posts immensely but what is all this about?

I'm not on a side! Honest! If I have a view on something, I just say it.

Here, I appreciate that someone has signed a letter that indicates transsexual persons agree with me on self-ID - and so I say so.

Here, I also unappreciate that the same someone has been posting on the forum presenting themselves as a woman ally of trans people but now tells me that they've actually been a trans person all along - and so I say so.

For good or for ill, I also have a particular beef with people who make emotive appeals to female socialisation on feminist messageboards and, when I see that playing out, draw attention to it. I realise that it makes some people feel uncomfortable and I also realise that I can be a bit of a hardliner about it so many here might agree when it's particularly egregious but also disagree other times and think I put too high a priority on it.

Therefore, I try to point out it in plain language but without being abusive and I don't mind in the least if I get any push back. Always feel free to push back on anything I say!

It was LangCleg not me. I just quoted her as I wasn't understanding the allusion in her post.

Which brings me to this:

OMG - I'm laughing my socks off here. I told someone in DM to watch out for this post from Ceinwen2 and here it is. The script at it's finest.

Ok, can you tell us more spontaneousgiventime? otherwise it is just a random statement flung out into the thread which goes over my head (and the heads of some others no doubt).

I also think the people who put their name to this letter have been brave to do so. It’s important to make the distinction between transexual and transgender and I think many people are unaware of the difference and assume anyone who is transgender is on the route to becoming transexual or already is.
I don’t know anything about the disagreements between Jaycee and sweary so can’t make any comment on that.

LM came out as having a diagnosis of schizophrenia yesterday (initially whilst drunk on twitter).
LM claimed he identified as autistic until about a week ago.

God, I'm confused now.Who was it that said I was a lair? Anyway; I was. Apologies for being dishonest about my background.Christ I'm bad at social media. I need a lie down.

OMG - I'm laughing my socks off here. I told someone in DM to watch out for this post from Ceinwen2 and here it is. The script at it's finest.