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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Local Election Results

57 replies

Writersblock2 · 04/05/2018 13:56

Sooo...how do you all feel about them? It's very much a mixed bag. Personally, I am happy to see UKIP take a nose-dive (it was inevitable), but the rest is rather "bitty." Not very happy to see Labour taking Plymouth, but then again, it's a large student population. I wonder how many voted Labour on the basis they supported the women's shortlist changes/"transwomen are women" slant.

Thoughts?

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c75kp0r · 05/05/2018 15:47

safe labour seat, so they decided to fob us off with a baby who hadn't read the manifesto or the newspapers. He and his two chums got elected. Hopefully the other two have some clue. :)

Offred · 05/05/2018 15:41

That’s exactly my point Sparta.

OF COURSE to feminists the Labour Party is irrelevant. I’m not really sure why anybody ever thought the Labour Party WAS/was going to be relevant to feminism.

My common cause with the party is nothing to do with feminist values. I do not see them as a vehicle for that in any way. They may become one or they may tinker around grabbing for ‘liberal’ votes or they may decide they have an exclusive agenda. That is a way off.

OnTheList · 05/05/2018 14:36

Given how weak the Conservatives are at the moment I think it reflects very badly on Labour

Indeed.

I am another happy to see UKIP basically wiped out. Though I was surprised, I was vaguely listening to the news yesterday and it said something along the lines of UKIP lost 80 seats...I did not know UKIP had that many to lose? I am not the most political person mind, so I don't really pay that much attention, but I was under the impression that they were wiped out last time around Confused

AncientLights · 05/05/2018 14:26

@BadBilly there was a shortish thread on here this week about a new party called 'Renew' which looks to be centrist. I emailed them to ask their stance on the GRA & amendments to it. No answer, yet at least. They probably haven't heard of it.

AncientLights · 05/05/2018 14:21

Definitely falling in love with James Kirkup.

ThisisSparta · 05/05/2018 14:14

Offred it is irrelevant what the Labour Party is if it is being run by misogynists and racists.

We need to see a clear commitment from Labour that they will centre women’s rights, and also tackle all forms of racism within the party.

Offred · 05/05/2018 11:54

I voted labour. We had an historic victory here. I am pleased.

I think a lot of the stuff going on here is based on what I see as a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Labour Party is and to some extent an identity crisis within the party. They are the party of the labour movement, their primary function is related to economics, they are founded in ‘worker’s rights’ and this comes from a time when ‘worker’s rights’ were exclusively ‘men’s rights’ hence the deep ties with the trade unions which are still very much ‘men’s rights’ groups.

There are loads of things wrong with what the Labour Party is, but it has not become anti-women, it has a long history of being about men. The entire class analysis that the concept of a Labour Party is based on is not really how the world of work even works any more structurally never mind socially, the ways that we ran the economy in the 19th century essentially.

They make LOADS of mistakes re equalities, which are a modern expansion based on the same ideas of collective organisation that are in the labour movement; equal value and equitable treatment for all equalities issues has become attached to a party that has always been passionate about the original equality issue; economics. I don’t think they are future thinking enough regarding making the transition from the industrial revolution to the age of technology we are in now. I don’t think they really understand the change in step required to be a party for all the equalities rather than just the labour movement.

They are CLEARLY vulnerable to MRA masquerading as TRA, there is something intuitive there on a deep level.

These are things that IMO may or may not be resolved in favour of widening the equalities portfolio and doing it well in time.

However, I can certainly see that some of the same arguments that apply re feminism being a single issue and feminists not being responsible for XYZ other inequality because they are focused on women also apply to the Labour Party re economics. That’s the basis on which I am a member and on which I voted for them this time. In total awareness that they are not and never have been interested in overthrowing patriarchy.

The reality is that there is not a single party for a feminist agenda. There never was. WEP gave it a try, I’ll come to that later.

The whole political system is still adjusting to the general expansion of ‘rights’ and ‘equalities’ as an important thing and trying to work out how to approach them, whether they should centre them within their traditional politics or whether they should pay lip service to them as something people are concerned about, whether they should actually be arguing against these new things.

Labour’s reason for being re the economy is important to me. I will understand if at some point they decide not to take on the mantle of centring other equalities issues and I will understand if it widens their remit too far but I don’t think they will come to that decision.

What I see from them is the party being well meaning (which I totally HATE, well meaning idiocy/harm) and making rookie mistakes like assuming a disabled candidate won’t be an arsehole or lacking perspective on how their ‘matter of course’ traditions will be perceived by others.

I have more hope in labour than WEP TBH because of these equalities issues and how they are framed and understood and centred have borrowed a lot from the same places the worker’s movement came from. WEP lacks historical basis, this has led to more freedom and new thinking but it has also led to their idiotic position on self ID.

What everyone who has responded to equalities issues by intuitively thinking of them as things that are important needs to do IMO is proper class analysis for each issue. Labour should have a head start here but is held back by well meaning crap and tradition IMO.

Needmoresleep · 05/05/2018 10:19

LaSqrrl, rightly or wrongly it was me who thought 'ah bless'. He was well into his 80s. Experience is that it is worth mentioning local problems: potholes; pigeons nesting under bridges, etc, to LibDem campaigners as tgey do follow up. I thought I would give him something more meaty to consider.

LassWiADelicateAir · 04/05/2018 23:31

FermatsTheorem

I can't speak for Lass but I'm using liberal in the classic sense of balancing rights, with an emphasis on individual freedom (Mill's positive and negative liberties, sometimes paraphrased as "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins")

I'm not using it in the bastardised sense adopted by social justice warriors to mean unquestioning enthusiasm for the trendy cause du jour

Yes , I agree with that. Jordan Peterson is not universally liked on here but he describes himself as a classic British liberal; Blaire White is generally not liked at all and describes herself as right wing but is far more liberal than the average social justice warrior- such is the bizarre state of politics these days.

Alan Johnstone and Anna Soubry were on Andrew Neil's show a few weeks ago. You couldn't have put a cigarette paper between what they were saying.

FermatsTheorem · 04/05/2018 23:15

I can't speak for Lass but I'm using liberal in the classic sense of balancing rights, with an emphasis on individual freedom (Mill's positive and negative liberties, sometimes paraphrased as "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins").

I'm not using it in the bastardised sense adopted by social justice warriors to mean unquestioning enthusiasm for the trendy cause du jour.

But as a Mill/Rawls type of liberal I'm absolutely committed to letting other people get on with doing their own thing so long as it doesn't mess up other people's lives. (Though I do have a tendency towards rule utilitarianism, hence for instance I'd advocate the Nordic model for decriminalising the sale of sex while criminalising its purchase, because overall I think this minimises harm - in this respect I'm a liberal rather than a libertarian)

LaSqrrl · 04/05/2018 23:07

1. One of their candidates was transgender.
2. What was twitter.
3. He was married to a woman.

Awww Needmoresleep, did you actually feel the 'pat pat' of condescension on your 'pretty little head', and 'not to worry' he is pro-woman, don't you know he enslaved is married to one?

Wanderabout · 04/05/2018 23:07

Fermats sorry

Wanderabout · 04/05/2018 23:06

I've described the AWS issue as the canary in the coal mine for the wider problem of authoritarianism on the left.

Yes Fernats totally agree. It has terrified me watching what has gone on in party politics in the name of AWS and self-ID.

Not just Labour either. The bit where the man in the dress persuaded the young Green Party women to be called 'non-men' so as not to offend. That was a big clue right that something wasn't going the right way for women.

Metoodear · 04/05/2018 23:02

@LassWiADelicateAir

Socially liberal has got us to self Id and people not being tackled of sexual abuse less we offend them

Sometimes it’s prudent to be socially conservative being to liberal ends up with people being thrown under the bus

LangCleg · 04/05/2018 22:46

I've described the AWS issue as the canary in the coal mine for the wider problem of authoritarianism on the left.

Yes. I agree with this very much. There are better ways to fight for social justice than reaching for authoritarian measures and an authoritarian cultural environment every single time.

It's terrible for women at the moment - vote Tory and get hammered economically; vote Labour and get hammered socially. Catch-22.

LassWiADelicateAir · 04/05/2018 22:24

wonder what would I would think if the Tory party ditched their screw-the-poor faction and went for a more centrist fiscally conservative but socially liberal stance with a strong commitment to freedom of speech

Guaranteed permanently in government?

They need more Anna Soubrys and Ken Clarkes

OlennasWimple · 04/05/2018 22:21

what would I would think if the Tory party ditched their screw-the-poor faction and went for a more centrist fiscally conservative but socially liberal stance with a strong commitment to freedom of speech

I'd think that Ken Clarke had become party leader

OlennasWimple · 04/05/2018 22:20

Talking of OJ's less than stellar electioneering in London, I haven't seen his response anywhere to concerns raised about him supporting a known extremist as a candidate in Westminster...

FermatsTheorem · 04/05/2018 22:17

At the same time, at the moment (Universal Credit, the rape clause, attacks on disability benefits) I can't actually bring myself to vote Tory. But I do sometimes contrast the antisemitic misogynist Bromentum types with the Tories (woman PM, large number of MPs from ethnic minorities including those on the front bench) and wonder what would I would think if the Tory party ditched their screw-the-poor faction and went for a more centrist fiscally conservative but socially liberal stance with a strong commitment to freedom of speech.

OlennasWimple · 04/05/2018 22:13

Fermats - that's a great way of putting it. I agree

FermatsTheorem · 04/05/2018 22:07

Wander I've described the AWS issue as the canary in the coal mine for the wider problem of authoritarianism on the left. Ditto the cult of the dear leader. I think we see the same thing with the revolting antisemitism - the knee jerk reaction seems to be "you're being disloyal to St. Corbyn for even raising the issue, we must deselect you forthwith."

I can't vote for a Labour party that has this Stalinist "my leader, right or wrong" attitude, and show trials, and #nodebate.

LassWiADelicateAir · 04/05/2018 22:00

There are just far too many centrist voters who can't bear to vote for a party led by someone they perceive as far left. Self-ID has probably made a very limited difference to the overall number of Labour votes

Self-ID had no bearing on my resigning my membership.

Wanderabout · 04/05/2018 21:56

Agree Irene the way Labour have handled Self-ID is symptomatic of the wider attitude of Labour/momentum. It isn't yet as visible as other issues such as anti-semitism but awareness is growing and it isn't going to go away. Labour's heartland voters won't want penises in their daughter's changing rooms so Corbyn and friends might want to find a good electable answer to that one at some point. Hint; "I just look at the person in front of me and see how they want to express themselves" is not it.

I also wouldn't underestimate the number of female foot soldiers they lost through resignations recently including. That lost labour and passion will have been a blow. Nor the amount this matters to people who see what's going on, and how word spreads.

IrenetheQuaint · 04/05/2018 21:41

I think Labour under Corbyn have reached their ceiling. There are just far too many centrist voters who can't bear to vote for a party led by someone they perceive as far left. Self-ID has probably made a very limited difference to the overall number of Labour votes, but reflects a wider problem with Corbyn's Labour (perceived by many as aggressively right on and uninterested in the realities of people's lives).

Xenia · 04/05/2018 21:32

All I would say to Labour is keep it up and hopefully the Tories will remain in power at the next election. Corbyn seems to be doing exactly what the Tories need. I have always thought he was one of the Conservatives' biggest assets.
My borough had over 40% voting which is quite good for a local election. We go to and fro Labour Tory and we stayed Labour this time which is not surprising given local demographics but probably accounts for the massive pot holes and 3200 a year council tax I pay sadly. (my own ward is Tory)

Anyway let us see who gets in at teh general election.