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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

I have taken a stand!

39 replies

Sadcister · 04/05/2018 11:56

After hearing that the YHA now allow trangender people "to use the facilities they feel more comfortable with", I rung them up.

I asked about the transgender policy, got put on hold, then was told how inclusive they are etc.
I then asked about how that worked with single sex facilities and got put through to a manager.
She said that they have mixed-sex bathrooms, but the single-sex dorms.
Apparently they allow transgender people to choose, but she hinted that they look at "how they present".
She said a lot about how they do multiple ID checks to check that people who are known to be a problem can't enter.
She said if they had a problem, or another guest, that they'd be accomodated in a single room. (unclear who'd be moved)
I asked if the other guests in the "single sex" female dorm would be told there was a biological male in there. - she said no, because it's private etc.
She also said that the staff might not know - and I pointed out that they did ID checks, but she said that they might not want to disclose that.
She also mentioned that they were "in line with the equality act" and - I said that I believed she had been misinformed, as the equality act does allow for single-sex provision.

I then said I was sorry, but I would have to cancel my membership, as I wouldn't feel comfortable having booked a female-only dorm (as I always do), that there might not only be females in there!

I do feel sorry for the YHA, as they do great work, but as a solo traveller much of the time, I have always booked female-only dorms. So it's no use to me being a member if I can no longer be assured of that any more.

OP posts:

Original poster

Sadcister · 05/05/2018 15:40

@c75kp0r don't blame you, the vocab is a minefield!

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Original poster

Sadcister · 05/05/2018 15:38

I think "excluded" is an overly emotive word though, of course everybody is excluded from things. For example, as a female, I am "excluded" from male facilities, as I should be! Also as an able-bodied person I am also "excluded" from using disabled facilities, because they're not there for me, and me using them takes them away from the people that actually need them.
So really, "exclusion" is not always a bad thing, as it keeps things "exclusive" when necessary (see what I did there?)

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c75kp0r · 05/05/2018 15:27

thanks - I also now realise I didn't mean transsexuals.. I meant transgender - (I think) - sorry

AskAuntLydia · 05/05/2018 15:25

How do they balance the rights of the two groups?

They don't.

Men's rights always trump women's.

Always.

OnTheList · 05/05/2018 15:23

Apparently they allow transgender people to choose, but she hinted that they look at "how they present".

Why on earth should how they present be important? Thats all about bloody stereotypes. Oh, are you feminine enough to share with female people? Fuck that. Should be about sex and thats it. Its possible to make provisions for transwomen who do not wish to share with men (and I don't blame them for that) without just expecting women to share with male people, AND not even tell them (in the rare case that its not obvious).

Original poster

Sadcister · 05/05/2018 14:52

A trans woman can't use single sex female facilities anyway - their very presence makes it mixed sex! (if they're using it, it's no longer female-only)

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Original poster

Sadcister · 05/05/2018 14:49

@c75kp0r I don't think transsexuals should be "excluded" (from what?) either, but single sex accommodation should be that!

Personally I think the obvious solution would be to have 3 options: male, female, and mixed. Then the male/female could be single sex, and if you are trans, or not fussed about who you share with, use mixed. Trans people would have the option of using the facilities of their biological sex, or mixed sex accommodation.

I'd be very interested to hear the views of people who need single sex accommodation /facilities due to religious reasons.

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c75kp0r · 05/05/2018 14:40

I strongly believe transsexuals should not be excluded, turned away or made feel uncomfortable.

But I worry that this not exclude women from certain cultural backgrounds who cannot used mixed facilities? How do they balance the rights of the two groups?

AncientLights · 05/05/2018 14:16

Any of us leaving organisations need to make it plain to them exactly why we are doing so. Women hold a lot of financial power, which is often overlooked, and we need to use this. Why should we give money to anyone or any organisation that makes us feel uncomfortable or puts other people's wishes/needs ahead of ours?

YHA sounds like a Man Friday waiting to happen.

Original poster

Sadcister · 05/05/2018 14:09

@Wanderabout - good question! I don't know, I just bcame aware of it recently (from twitter).

The Abuse/safeguarding is also a good point. You'd think since YHA work with a lot of young people they'd be particularly careful of such things...

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Ineedacupofteadesperately · 05/05/2018 11:32

But after Rotheram, Telford etc I don't know why I'm surprised that no-one cares about women or girls. God I feel depressed. What the actual fuck have I done bringing two daughters into this fucked up world

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 05/05/2018 11:29

Women have lost our rights to sleep in shared rooms without any penis owner who chooses to be there too.

Exactly and after #metoo it is mind boggling that anyone can fail to understand why this is a big issue - and when it comes to girls a big safeguarding failure. Just because a biological male 'feels like a girl/woman' (whatever that means) if they are still biologically male the safeguarding policy (that is written in the first place because of differences between biological males and females) should still apply.

It's so frightening that we risk speaking up about not wanting this becoming a 'hate crime'. It is truly terrifying. I too will be questioning companies on their policies and boycotting. Sadly means I have to boycott M&S as I love their school clothes (and used to spend a lot of money there) but that's what I'll do - this is too important for my daughters not too.

Wanderabout · 04/05/2018 21:14

Women have lost our rights to sleep in shared rooms without any penis owner who chooses to be there too.

The reality is really not 'just paperwork' is it?

Wanderabout · 04/05/2018 20:46

Have the YHA just changed their policy or has it been like that for a while?

BetsyM00 · 04/05/2018 19:49

It is absolutely against the Equalities Act.

Organisations are allowed under the EA to exclude on the basis of sex when providing sleeping accommodation. But the YHA is separating dorms on the basis of gender id - and this is not one of the characteristics for exclusion under the EA.

This results in them being illegally discriminatory against men and TIFs who are excluded from the female gender id allocated dorms.

All overnight shared accommodation is now the same AFAIK. If you can find just one place that still separates by sex I'd love to hear about it.

Women have lost our rights to sleep in shared rooms without any penis owner who chooses to be there too.

ReluctantCamper · 04/05/2018 16:19

Thank you for doing this

changeypants · 04/05/2018 16:17

And I can't keep saying this enough - many woman who have experienced trauma at the hands of men will not be able to do anything if they feel uncomfortable in the above situation. The freeze response is involuntary.

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 04/05/2018 16:13

"Look at how they present"? I'm assuming this doesnt include looking down their pants?

AskMeHow · 04/05/2018 16:06

I've emailed them about this too. I wonder what reply I will get?

Elletorro · 04/05/2018 14:04

Hi suited.

May I suggest asking for a meeting in your letter?

I did and got a call within 12 hours

Original poster

Sadcister · 04/05/2018 13:51

@SuitedandBooted well done! I need to write to mine too... she's a labour woman so not sure how that'll go!

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SuitedandBooted · 04/05/2018 13:20

SadCister

Will do
I have already written to him, and got a very C & P response, about how organisations were upholding the Equality Act under current legislation blah, blah,...
I will be clearly demonstrating that they are NOT!!

invisibleoldwoman · 04/05/2018 13:18

@Sadcister yes exactly. They are misleading people. I don’t think most of these organisations jumping on the inclusive bandwagon have thought it through at all.

Original poster

Sadcister · 04/05/2018 13:13

I think my problem really is that it's advertised as "single-sex" but then it's not.
If they advertise it as "mixed-sex" people could just choose to avoid it if they felt uncomfortable.
But since you might not even know!?
And the "if you were uncomfortable" thing doesn't really work, as you have people coming in and out of dorms at all times. You might check in at 8pm and go straight to your dorm, see 4 other women and think "well yep that's fine" and go to sleep. Then someone rolls in at 1am and you wake up to see a biological male, who's been there while you're unconscious and vulnerable in your nightie.

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Original poster

Sadcister · 04/05/2018 13:09

Hi @SuitedandBooted that's fine! Would you mind PM-ing me a draft before you send it please?

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