Men in feminism.

Can I make a suggestion? If everyone stopped feeding Patriarchy (and other similar male commenters) they'd probably get bored and go away eventually. As long as they're being given delicious trollhouse cookies they'll keep coming back.

@Bowlofbabelfish

My experience matches that of your colleague. Lots of stuff about living in Saudi that will make you tear your hair out in frustration, but it does feel safer in terms of random street crime. Spending time there and talking to women there can be eye opening in terms of understanding how to same underlying patriarchal obsessions can manifest themselves in different ways.

Spoke to colleague today. Interesting chat. Will summarise as best I can:

Does she feel oppressed personally? Yes and no. Family are conservative but decent, so she said she always felt safe and respected , albeit limited. Well educated (all female university) as many Saudi women are. She said at uni she became more aware of societal oppression of women. Currently married (husband lived in USA for a few years to do postdoc) and husband is relaxed over her working.

Are women there repressed? Yes by the state. Guardianship laws put all power into hands of family. Her family and her husband have reacted well to her working but she knows this is not universal.,

Are women in the West oppressed? This was actually very interesting - short answer yes. She spent some time in the USA with her husband and was shocked at how personally unsafe she felt. She had a much better way of putting it but she basically said that back home she never feels unsafe, but the drawback is the restrictions on movement etc. In the USA she felt extremely unsafe but had more freedom of movement and action. She said it’s the same problem (men wanting to control and have access to women) but dealt with in different ways but women don’t win either way. It’s either a cage or bring out fighting g the dogs off yourself. So that’s depressing.
She has no desire to move back to the USA (assume dh was on short visa anyway.)
I did not ask her how rich she is.

A book I read which may be of interest to PP.

www.routledge.com/Men-Masculinities-and-Violence-An-Ethnographic-Study/Ellis/p/book/9781138819092

“Feminist men' almost always are pro-porn, pro-prostitution and such. Its interesting.”

Liberal feminists to a man. .

When I was a young woman there were always men who were oh so liberal and right on - and women who admired them. I bet anyone who went to the university in the 70s could name a couple of lecturers who would fit the description....

Ha! PatriarchyPersonified's response to that list, particularly on points of porn and prostitution illustrate perfectly why I can't be arsed engaging with men in feminism.

Well quite. Thats something else I didn't mention in my post. 'Feminist men' almost always are pro-porn, pro-prostitution and such. Its interesting.

Near every man who I have ever heard say he is a feminist is one of those who is adamant that feminism is for everyone. Its about advancing everyones rights. Its not about women, etc etc. They also tend to 'what about the men' a lot, which is fairly irritating. There was a discussion on another forum about this kind of thing, and every guy who posted on the thread had a different 'poor men' post. Like 'family courts are biased against men, feminism should sort that', 'men commit suicide more often than women' and so on. Along with the usual 'men are not allowed any spaces away from women, but its fine for women to want female only spaces?!?!?!'

Oddly enough, the same male posters are overly accepting of TRAs narrative and think women should budge over. And they tend to get quite aggressive towards women who disagree.

In short, from what I have seen, men only seem to be 'feminists' when they are using it as a way to...get at feminists.

Not all men though, disclaimer thats always needed. Just most from my experience.

They don't mean well.

Most feminst men are the equivalent of brocialists. I think they mean well, but theyre rarely radical or actually do anything.

The eponymous PatriarchyPersonified covers all of the rules regularly.

Oh she's not the right type of Saudi woman? That’s me told then. And her.

Which rule is this, bewilderness? It’s a combo of shut up, doing it wrong, and men always knowing the reasons behind women’s behaviour right?

You know I’m sure that women make up over half of graduates over there? The average Saudi woman IS well educated.

Yes anyway men have loads of really useful insights into feminism. Such as there being no need for it since women aren’t oppressed. Their contributions are incredibly valuable And not at all derailing. You like to derail don’t you?

Babel

Thanks for clarifying your answer.

When you ask your (presumably rich, well educated, married to a westernised man) Saudi friend about the average Saudi woman's view of western women's 'oppression'. Please let us know her opinion.

No doubt it will put me right back in my box.

It's not exactly an academically rigorous field.

Really? Gosh. Of course it’s only studying women’s contribution to/interaction in society so it's fluffy right? What about similar humanities fields - are they rigorous? Or just the ones that deal with women?

Actually women’s studies barely exists any more - it’s now Gender studies. Even women’s studies has been colonised. :( academia is a hard place to be right now, it’s very much infiltrated by the thoight police.

What do you do for a living?

What do you consider academically rigorous?

Yes I will come back and let you know what she says. As I said, we have spoken about this before when we met in person. I know some of her opinions about it but I will ask the question directly. She’s lived most of her life in KSA with a stint in the USA when her husband did a postdoc. I need to talk to her next week at some point anyway.

Ha ha. It's always kind of fun to watch a man 'argue' in the style of Jordan Peterson. And with such similar content too! But there's a reason Peterson's been called 'the professor of piffle'. This stuff is entertaining, yes. But still piffle.

I suppose you could tell me you have a doctorate in Women Studies or something like that, but how impressive is that? It's not exactly an academically rigorous field. You see, you fell into that one. Your assumption is quite astounding. When a woman tells you she works in academia she must have done a fluffy subject... and of course Women Studies [sic] just have to be fluffy!

Ah well! I suppose you can't help it. You were socialised that way!

We are taught to accommodate their needs and they are socialised in turn to feel entitled to us feeding them with both food and knowledge.

If you started to argue against my actual positions, rather than the ones you keep creating for me, we might get somewhere.

Oh, I think we've got somewhere. Pretty much exactly where the OP might have predicted, unfortunately.

Hmm. How... vague of you.So your Saudi female friends agree that you are oppressed? As a western woman? Your last post wasn't particularly clear on that point.

I’m talking to her next week at some point - I’ll ask her that exactly:

Do you think western women are oppressed?
Do you think Saudi women are oppressed (I’ve asked her this last one before actually, her answer is ‘broadly yes, by the system, individual mileage varies depending on family and partner)

Is there anything else you’d like me to ask her, bearing in mind we will need to talk about our actual, scientific, patient centred multi million dollar project as well mind ;)

I can ask my Iranian neighbour who fled Iran as well. In fact, I’m going to ask any woman I know from any ‘oh these ladies have it so much worse than you so shut the fuck up you extremist’ background. And maybe my big standard, internet connection owning white colleagues too.

I shall report back next week.

They're mostly like little children demanding parental attention - either by being "good" (getting the nipple) or crying for "not being noticed" (getting the cuddle) or by being "naughty" (getting the metaphorical spank). All attention seeking behaviours used by children when they want something.

Most grown adult men have no place in the women's movement because they haven't developed beyond the needy stage.

Men who want to be better men can just go away and do it. Women have written enough about how they can do this. In fact I'm sure some man saw a woman blog about it and then rephrased it better. The men could go and find his stuff probs.

The thread is called 'Men in feminism'.

And the first line of the OP is 'They are invariably a distraction at best. '

well our friend here is certainly doing his upmost to support the assertion in the OP.

So, I guess useful contributions in a way?

well our friend here is certainly doing his upmost to support the assertion in the OP.

one of those guys who when they get on a roll you have to put your hand up, say can i just stop you there, and walk away.

Babel and Xenophile I've had those kinds of conversations too. Had a really interesting conversation recently about an Egyptian feminist novelist. So much great feminist thinking coming from Arab countries!

Penis Feminism™.

An interesting idea, I'll grant you. But not one I plan on signing up to.

Patriarchy thinks feminism is about him, not destroying patriarchy, cuz patriarchy.
Bless.

This is the root of the issue I think

I'm not trying to control you

This is a conversation in FWR about what women think about men in feminism isn't it?

Women are expressing their views on that topic. As they have every right to do, given that feminism is about women.

Your role in feminism is listening. And learning. Then go away and do what you can to improve things.