Are you scared?

If trans women actually owned their experiences, ie. those of atypical men, then very few feminists would have an issue with that.

Because identity develops socially we do depend on each other. Trans women's personal identity relies on it being affirmed by others. Their story relies on our acquiescence and ours, equally, on theirs. They are mutually exclusive. Identities collide. I don't think we will win either.

Larry scolds the women on this forum for thinking feminist thoughts quite regularly. The "reasonable" men's rights guy - it's quite tiresome.

I don't think anyone minds trans women owning their own experiences of gender dysphoria or transitioning - if only it were just that. But the narrative is that they are women - and we're told we're bigots, and should be raped or curb stomped because we may have the temerity to bring our experience of growing up as girls, of being socialised as girls, of having female biology, into the discussion.

Larry scolded the women on this forum in trouble for not engaging with the idiotic "points" made by the midnight misogynist, so...hanging out on a forum full of women who you disapprove of is an odd hobby.

Bloodmagic's comments are resonating with a lot of women because we know this stuff, we just talk ourselves out of knowing it, or at least of discussing it, because of the angry dismissive responses from men.

SuperMatch's comments otoh don't seem to be resonating with anyone, and there's a reason for that too.

Feminists disagree with you I mean, in case that's not clear.

I see that quite a lot on here, daily, telling trans people that their experiences are not authentic or valid. Not theirs even - because they are not women/ men so they cannot have any experience of being a woman/ man

You really don't. You see people saying that women and men experience the world differently. As I say, if you disagree with that, that's your prerogative. Feminists disagree, in my experience.

Absolutely I've seen many trans women talking about it here on MN. Those trans women are vilified by TRAs for doing so. As are detransitioners and people who define themselves as transsexual.

You're saying that to have concerns about women's rights is an 'anachronistic strand of trans-exclusionary radical feminism '. Are you saying that this sympathy and compassion for women's lived experience and rights to be heard is widespread through the whole community and a full force within the trans movement?

I don't recall seeing trans people saying they own anything other than their own experiences.

That's crap, it really is. The TRA narrative that they are a woman because they say they are is nothing to do with "experiences" and everything to do with beliefs, feelings and emotions

care about or respect for the lived experience of women and why their authentic knowledge about their reality is causing them to point out ways in which self ID in its current proposed form negatively affects them.

I've seen many trans women talking about exactly that: how unregulated self ID could negatively affect women including trans women.

I also have not seen anyone telling trans people that they are not the owners of their own experinence. Just that they are not the owners of other people's.

I see that quite a lot on here, daily, telling trans people that their experiences are not authentic or valid. Not theirs even - because they are not women/ men so they cannot have any experience of being a woman/ man. I don't recall seeing trans people saying they own anything other than their own experiences.

Nope not scared getting more and more pissed off with every passing day. Empowerment is what is needed, not fear, we have done it before we can do it again.

I think feminism is netirely about change, @supermatchgame. I mean, obviously if you're quite happy with the status quo that's your prerogative.

Why can't they be one of the many iterations of what being a man in the world can be? Why isn't OK to have a beard and also wear a long flowing skirt and lots of jewelry?

They can if that's what they are, it is ok. But some women don't want a beard, have no interest in skirts or jewellery, and feel more comfortable with breasts and a vagina instead of a penis.

Or maybe they understand feminism as being rooted in the view that the most authentic source of knowledge about our realities is our own experience.......

I might buy that if there was the faintest recognition, care about or respect for the lived experience of women and why their authentic knowledge about their reality is causing them to point out ways in which self ID in its current proposed form negatively affects them.

Your post pretty much demonstrates, this kind of feminism is about respecting specific people's lived experience and knowledge while actively suppressing and shaming into silence the experience of others. In fact almost entirely others whose lived experience and voices are inconvenient to the narrative.

Which does give this anachronistic strand of trans-exclusionary radical feminism one of it's paradoxes - feminists telling people (including trans people) that they are not the authorities on their own lived experiences.

You're going to have to go elsewhere for whatever anachronistic analysis it is that you are looking for; discussion here seems to me to be very much up to date.

I also have not seen anyone telling trans people that they are not the owners of their own experinence. Just that they are not the owners of other people's.

What will be worse in twenty years' time:

Telling our daughters that we were so change averse and transphobic that we couldn't see past our own anti-trans ideology.

Or perhaps they have come to view trans women who were assigned male at birth and been gendered boy/ man for part of their lives as being one the many iterations of what being a woman in the world can be

Why can't they be one of the many iterations of what being a man in the world can be? Why isn't OK to have a beard and also wear a long flowing skirt and lots of jewelry?

Because uni-age women aren't experienced enough to recognise their own oppression, they swallow the "trans women are the most oppressed" narrative hook line and sinker.

Or perhaps they have come to view trans women who were assigned male at birth and been gendered boy/ man for part of their lives as being one the many iterations of what being a woman in the world can be.

Or maybe they understand feminism as being rooted in the view that the most authentic source of knowledge about our realities is our own experience.......

Which does give this anachronistic strand of trans-exclusionary radical feminism one of it's paradoxes - feminists telling people (including trans people) that they are not the authorities on their own lived experiences.

Oh FFS. Post was going to continue:

I know, from lurking (and very occasional posting) here that a lot of women had NOT taken their eye off the ball and that's really important. I also know that I'm not going to get a kicking here for having done so.

Re the post about younger women earlier in the thread, I completely agree that there's such a lot that they don't know yet. We probably can't even expect to be able to tell them they are wrong. After all at their age they are supposed to be thinking they are right, starting to think "for themselves". We just have to bite the bullet of being right (but repulsive, see "1066 And All That") and press on. What will be worse in twenty years' time: telling our daughters "oh, yeah, we just gave up" or, "we knew you'd hate us to start with, but we couldn't not fight"?

But yes I feel scared. But also somehow refreshed - eye back on the ball. And, sometimes, optimistic. For example the FBU (Lucy Masoud who has spoken at a Woman's Place talk is a firefighter) have endorsed what A Woman's Place is saying: www.socfem.net/2018/05/london-fbu-lgbt

Ah, I have not worked out how to put line breaks in! Please bear with me. Post was going to continue:

I'm scared too. And angry. But with myself as much as with what is going on now. As in, I took my eye off the ball. It's not exactly that I thought the feminist war was won, but I did think there was a general forwards trundle.

boat

I'm not scared exactly - but I know that I'm speaking from a position of relative privilege where I am cushioned in RL from this stuff (there are pretty much zero trans rights in the country where I live, and the likelihood of keyboard warriors doing something that affects me in RL is fairly similar, for various reasons including having my own armed security ). So I feel like a distant observer.

Having said that... I have just read the Handmaid's Tale. I know, I know, I should have read it years ago - I sort of felt like I knew it, because so much has passed into popular culture (I knew what a handmaid is, where Gilead is, what a Salvaging is etc etc). But the detail of it...well, it reads like an account of five years down the road and that is terrifying.

Because uni-age women aren't experienced enough to recognise their own oppression, they swallow the "trans women are the most oppressed" narrative hook line and sinker.

^^ Yy to this

Ha Sontaran!

I will confess to thinking about Bloodmagic's 1 man/100 women = the village keeps going, and then wondering how you'd get around the massive in-breeding issue & half-sibling pairings one generation later. I read and watch quite a lot of sci-fi, so I'm quite used to entertaining the idea of alternative universes etc. Having lived in a remote area with a mobile library service when I was a teen, it occurred to me that Bloodmagic's notional universe would need 'travelling inseminators' to mix things up a bit. I can't decide whether that's only a fun job in concept and whether, like people with jobs that involve a lot of international travel, the novelty wears off pretty quickly. It's when you puzzle through how to prevent the half-sibling/cousin pairings (and the rapid spread of STDs) that you start to see the benefit of many more men and a stable society with a reasonable grasp of lineage and record-keeping.

So, I want to thank Bloodmagic for giving me something different to think about on my morning commute today. I wasn't looking forwards to going back after the bank holiday & I forgot all about work until I was standing outside my building.

Maybe we could keep Chris Hemsworth in a field somewhere boat?