Hi Mumsnet, if you are asking feminist women to consider whether Mumsnet is for them, please be clear that the space *we* made here is for *all* of us.

SuperMatchGame and the now (I think) closed 'mumsnettransphobia' twitter account have raised the issue of 'respect', highlighting what they believe is disrespect for people who are transgender within these boards.

I believe that nuance and respect is much-needed. I also know that this means different things to different people.

I think it is reasonable, appropriate and necessary for us to ask questions about the the lack of respect and at times direct threats shown to women by some TRAs.

some examples (there are many many more) have been collated here:
manfridayuk.org/2018/05/04/manfriday-the-11th-our-very-own-art-exhibition/

When sites such as theterfs.com are apparently worthy of recommendation?

As James Kirkup wrote:
It’s because those women have been – quite successfully and even skilfully – demonised and stigmatised, put beyond the pale of civilised debate as those who question orthodoxy often are. They’ve been given a name, a name that means they’re bad people, people who should not speak and should not be heard. That name is “Terf,” which once meant “Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist” but now appears to stand in its own right as a term of abuse and dismissal alongside the other short, harsh words often used to question the worth and virtue of women.

And that small number of people who direct violence and abuse at “Terfs” are swimming in a larger sea of contempt and dismissal. Their conduct takes place in a social context where hostility to “Terfs” has become not just normal but even amusing, where there is no social cost to talking about and perhaps even inciting violence towards women who hold “unacceptable” views. Simply, some people, including people who would never themselves engage in that sort of violence, are doing things that make violent discourse and even violence look and feel OK. Sadly, they include journalists and politicians, people who parade their support for minority groups but speak about feminist women in terms they would never use about other people.
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/fear-and-loathing-grips-the-gender-debate/

Margaret Atwood's quote seems especially prescient in these times:
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

Interesting article, thanks.

Female privileged and misandry though...I guess it makes a change from 'transmisogynistic' though.

So much crossover between MRAs and TRAs. Someone on here said this a couple of years back and it kind of made everything click into place perfectly for me.

Not saying all trans people are MRAs, before someone misreads me.

An interesting article. I actually agree that a lot of people see them as failed men and that so many problems trans have are to do with this strict image of men should be (for want of a better word) masculine. But that is the concept of gender doing harm.

The rest I disagree with.

You may have already seen this article OnTheList, because it's a couple of years old. But it popped up in my newsfeed today, and seemed relevant to your comment.
www.dailyxtra.com/why-is-a-trans-woman-leading-a-mens-rights-group-69998

Lurker here newly joined. Thank you for an excellent post OP.

I don't consider myself a feminist or at least I didn't but I do believe in equality and biology. I find this assault on women and their rights upsetting and frightening.

AAK your post resonated with me.

I also remember the day I stopped reacting and dancing to my ex's tune, stood back and just said 'I see you'.

Every time he started up his shit after that I said it again, it was the beginning of a wonderful end to us.

Long time lurked, first time poster.

I've been inspired to actually throw my hat in the ring finally as I've been inspired at the strength being shown here.

Although I've never considered myself a feminist, this new phenomena of opening up women's spaces has caught my attention for a few years now, as I watched it slowly arrive here from America. Just wanted to get my voice heard in this, especially in women's sports.

Different people have different definitions of feminism and what it means today. For many it is about equality and empowerment for everyone.

That's vacuous "all lives matter" nonsense. Those people have different definitions of many things. I wouldn't advise listening to them.

This is meant to be a kind of refuge for us

But it isn't your private support group. Anyone can post here and discuss any feminist topics that they like. Different people have different definitions of feminism and what it means today. For many it is about equality and empowerment for everyone.

You don't get to tell other people what they can and can't say here. You didn't make this space, Mumsnet did.

Some people seem hell bent on disrespecting that by posting as many discriminatory and oppressive comments as possible. That isn't in the spirit of equality or the legislation that is meant to protect vulnerable groups. Some of the posters on here show little respect for Mumsnet or the opportunity they are trying to provide. Because they are more interested in pushing their own agenda at all costs. Just my opinion.

@SinisterBumFacedCat please start some threads - I'd be delighted to discuss other topics, genuinely. So please go ahead, I'd appreciate it.

Thank you juzza12 . I thought that was likely to be the case given what other studies have said but I was trying to be fair.

it's a shame one topic has dominated a section to the extent that trans issues are now seen as the one and only issue important to feminists.

As leyat says, 'trans ideology and activism is behind an unprecedented attack on our rights and our very reality.'

& I would add

-freedom of speech
-university education
-political influence
-impact on public services eg health/education
-influence of social media etc

as being issues that do not just affect feminists but everyone.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sam-gyimah-crackdown-on-students-silencing-free-speech-x28jx85fc

The idea that other people discussing things you aren't interested in means you don't want to engage on the board or on feminism at all is..bizarre...

I don't mind others discussing a topic I'm not interested in at all, but why devote an entire space to that discussion without renaming it as such. A scroll through feminist chat and every thread bar one on two is a trans thread. You wouldn't get the same on AIBU or _chat, it's a shame one topic has dominated a section to the extent that trans issues are now seen as the one and only issue important to feminists.

Thank you.

Interesting that female-to-male but not male-to-female had a higher than birth sex criminality pattern. I wonder if male-to-female went down (and if so was it still higher than birth female) or if it remained the same as birth male?

It also appeared to say trans had a higher suicide rate than general population control but it didn't have a wanted-to-trans-but-didnt control. In other words, would it have been higher if they had not transed?

I have only looked at the front page but I'm trying to be fair. I think I would struggle with the whole report (I'm fog filled at the moment) but I hope someone smarter will come along to give it a decent analysis and maybe answer my questions.

The terms I used are the ones used in the report to avoid confusion.

That's interesting. I don't suppose you have a link do you? I would hope that patents get to see that as well as the "I'll kill myself if I don't transition side.

I feel desperately sorry for parents in this. There is no right answer and they are being used as pawns. It must be so very hard.

Leyat don't worry - I can't see me agreeing beyond that!

Research to do with trans reminds me so much of ME/CFS. I am stuck with it and I want every kind of research going, looking at both the cause and cures and alleviating symptoms.

There is a large group who try to shut down research that is to do with the psychological elements. They believe that investigating that stops research in other areas (ignoring the fact that it would likely be different reserchers). They don't want anything found out in case it could be found to be "all in people's heads". And they often try to stop treatments that have a psychological element, even if it can help.

My belief is that mind and body are interconnected. I don't think that fighting stops cancer and people only die because they didn't fight hard enough. That's nonsense. But we know things like stress can cause physical problems so it makes sense to investigate it too.

I see the same in trans. People shutting down research in case it finds that some people are unhappy even after transition. Stopping other options like counselling than transitioning. This research, this counselling, could help people long term. Finding out why (some) people remain unhappy after transition could change treatment plans and end up with perhaps fewer people transitioning or feeling the need to, but those who do transition feeling better supported. It could make a big difference to a lot of unhappy people. So why does it get shut down? I genuinely can't see the reason but we can't deny that it does.

It's discussed on this thread leyat.

Basically a lot of people navigate through MN using "Active" or "Last 15 minutes" rather than go to each topic individually, and then click on threads that interest them.

If all FWR threads are "hidden from Active" people won't see them unless they specifically look in Feminism.

Many people would love this; it prevents lurkers coming across threads by accident and realising what's going on.

transwomen are literally male, only males can be transwomen

Yes, I know this. I thought it should be clarified so that I didn't get deleted. I was not saying that transwomen are male, I was pointing out the crossover thats impossible to deny. Same tactics, and same goals. But MRAs were pretty much condemned by all, where TRAs have convinced a staggering amount of people that they are the victims. Despite them being the ones who threaten women on a regular basis, and even physically attack them. Meanwhil;e, men are attacking transpeople, both physically and otherwise, sometimes in totally disgusting ways, and they are ignored and its still womens fault.

I have had a look onto many male dominated areas actually after this attack on MN, and some of the stuff they say is actually disgusting. But yeah, the focus is on mumsnet, because some women here dare to speak the truth. Without being offensive or actually transphobic. (On the whole, as I said I have seen some transphobic posts on here, deleted quickly, and often, from brand new users with no posting history at all, which is a bit suspect)