Hi Mumsnet, if you are asking feminist women to consider whether Mumsnet is for them, please be clear that the space *we* made here is for *all* of us.

There is already too much conflation calling TWs 'female', it's in the legislation and everywhere else.

Unconflate it then! Make legislators realise that sex is a biological reality - with huge consequences - and that gender, if they really believe in equality, should be a redundant measurement. We don't gather data on what colour people die their hair, on whether they are goths or punks, whether they like Corrie or EastEnders, etc, etc. Why collect data on whether people present themselves to the world as (stereotypical) men or women?
We need to do away with the idea of gender but keep the reality of biological sex.

That'll be the next thing, TRAs will realize that endo is a thing that exists and claim that they get it too. If you can experience cramps in your nonexistent uterus then why not?

Also a scientist, and I agree with babel and BigChoc.

Breastfeeding, gynae issues, relationships, all will eventually become 'transphobic'.

YY. I've just seen a thread about endometriosis!

I'm just reading in but already I imagine a silent protest camp growing at the Millicent statue.

Tssdncop what is this? Who is suspended, what is going on?

Brava OP.

This is one of the few spaces left online where women can speak their truth without being dissmissed, attacked, shut down or accused of bigotry.

senua, no, they get NONE of our words. None. doctor is correct, they want ALL our words, and won't stop until they have them. There is already too much conflation calling TWs 'female', it's in the legislation and everywhere else.

Angry: I did not agree to this forced, abusive marriage between feminism and trans activism, and I want a divorce.

Ahhh, don't we all. I could think of far better things to do with my time that repeat sanity/reality. It's like being a defacto hostage really. But I won't ever develop Stockholm over it. The stronger their tactics, the more my resistance.

They want all our words.

I am starting to think that Becca Riley-Cooper has a point and we should let the word 'woman' go.
There is gender, a social construct - described by man and woman.
There is sex, biological reality - described by male and female.
So if anybody wants to describe him/her/itself as 'woman' then go fill your boots. But 'female' is not up for discussion.
We can turn this around by telling them that they can appropriate 'woman' if they want but they will never be 'female'. They never define what a woman is, so we need to define was female is. Let them have a pyrrhic victory.

As a scientist, censoring biological facts would indeed make me wonder if this site is for me I don't do woo.

I’m also a scientist. I also don’t do woo.

I also think the idea of codifying belief is the slippery slope to insanity.

Just think about it for a minute MNHQ - all those dystopian future books and films where some seemingly crazy repressive regime is in charge - this is how it starts. It’s not tanks in the street from the off, it’s snall subtle things, then a few of the following

Policing of language
Mobbing of dissenters
Whipping up outrage
Reduction of law based fact based safeguards

Then it gets nasty
Shooting (or reporting, that’s already happening) all the academics, the intellectuals. Anyone who is pointing out anything factual.
Modification of the law to codify a belief structure.

And then we’re in Gilead. Or Iran. Or Pakistan where you can be butchered for being an atheist blogger. Or KSA. Or yes, we’ve always been at war with EastAsia. And two plus two has always been five.

Now I don’t know about you, but I think our current society, imperfect though it is, is absolutely miles better than any of the absolutely charming theocracies on this planet in terms of human rights.
I protested when Blair tried to get his blasphemy laws through. I will protest this too.

mods need coercive control training from a specialist provider. You need to stop twitter reports immediately.

That’s a start.

Thanks Mogle amd Flomper. That sounds easy enough! Don’t want to be doscussing chestfeeding on here with my mammary glands

Until vexatious complaints are treated as harassment, plus the complainants given consequences, the narcissists will continue to pull strings and bully by proxy

I think Mumsnet staff should, at the very least, all go and do the online Freedom Project. Perhaps then, finally, they might see the dynamics at work here.

If it’s true that you are suspending posters for stating biological reality, @MNHQ then that’s utterly disgraceful and sickening. Why are you capitulating to bullies?

The TRAs won't be happy until Mumsnet is Transnet.

(Though they won't be happy even then, because nobody can be happy when their peace of mind requires a complete denial of reality.)

I am not happy re the decision to delete posts re 'misgendering'.
Mumsnet has a choice here about how it is seen in the future.
I know it must be incredibly hard to be in this position, but I hope that the company decides that their role at this time in women's history makes it worth it.

LaSqrll x-post
Totally agree with you, we (and MNHQ) need to call out these abusive, silencing tactics.

I think Justine firmly pinned her colours to the mast when she went out to the broader media saying she had a problem with no platforming of women on this issue. She has given a platform and thread after thread exists with posts from women saying they do not consider transwomen as women because clearly biologically they are not. These threads and posts are left to stand. MNHQ is not a hive mind anymore than the rest of us are so there may well be trigger happy moderation going on since we know that there have been dissenters among their ranks for their stance on offering women that platform. I think though we have to be grateful to MN for the actual public stance they have taken on the promotion of free speech around this issue.

Precisely, LaSqrll. I did not agree to this forced, abusive marriage between feminism and trans activism, and I want a divorce.

Yep

Cross-posted with Chatty. We are on the same page, clearly.

Excellent post

Beer: Do you think that if you concede something they will back off? They won’t , they want all of us on our knees. You’ve just succeeded in disempowering yourself and us.

Absolutely.

Posie: First they'll silence the feminists, then language around birth, breastfeeding this narcissists won't stop.... they are incensed by women who don'\t buckle. All the libfems who are currently allies to trans women will find themselves coming second.... they are too stupid to see this. Narcissists have to win at all costs.

Sonic: FWR is first. Then it will be the boards talking about childbirth, infertility treatment, breastfeeding. Threads talking about periods. Then Relationships.

That is the TRA longer term game plan, for sure.

I have already seen it happen to a successful feminist board or two, years ago. First they let the T in, then 'shushed' the feminists for saying anything meanie/challenging against the trans dogma. Now they are boring sht sites that hardly anyone visits. So currently, we are up to Stage 2 here, 'shushing the feminists'. From there it is about a year into decline, and that shtful stripey pink and blue flag is planted.

If MNHQ think that letting the FWR board just die in the arse is no biggie, they have badly misjudged the situation. Breastfeeding, gynae issues, relationships, all will eventually become 'transphobic'. These are the standard tactics of the TRAs. So successful, they keep using them.

Anyone with working knowledge of DV abuser tactics pegs it straight away. Sadly, for the women in denial that they are in such a situation and still believing "he still loves me, really", are very hard to get through to, and will keep defending the abuser with stuff like "but it is me causing the problem, I just have to work harder at the relationship and it will all be back to the way it was in the beginning." We know that won't work, and the situation will worsen.

Lose your sense of self, or get out of the situation (or stand your ground is the alternative to get out for websites). These are really the choices on the table.

As Posie and Sonic and others says this narcissistic rage filled ‘activism’ is about an extreme fringe (and I emphasise clearly not your average person with gender dysphoria who is just getting on with their life) who appear to be seeking to stop women speaking or having female bodies, ie existing as humans, because those voices and bodies offend them so much. Head tilty reminder: There’s no right not to be offended.

I find lots of gender stereotyping offensive and on good days, laughable, but there are other ways of challenging thought that you don’t agree with than physical attacks or threats, social media attacks and threats and silencing.

But the key thing that everyone needs to understand (just look in Relationships) is that narcissistic tactics are about creating a silencing culture that grows and grows and it can’t ever be satisfied. It never stops with the latest demand even when you cave in to that.

I thought this article which another FWR poster put up a while ago is really interesting on this point: sorry I can’t recall who posted it but HT to them:

unremediatedgender.space/2018/Jan/dont-negotiate-with-terrorist-memeplexes/

Do we know if any FWR posters have been suspended for this - is there a list ?
If so, we must support them - or the situation will only worsen for feminists

I don't want to be driven off the most popular UK womens site to a subreddit ghetto