Hi Mumsnet, if you are asking feminist women to consider whether Mumsnet is for them, please be clear that the space *we* made here is for *all* of us.

Bad move MN

And what explanations are we being offered? None. I feel badly let down by MN

Ok, let me start by saying where I am the whole migendering thing isn't an issue.

I refuse to lie and have raised my children that way. I will not say a biological male can become a biological female.

So instead of using male/female pronouns I am going to use XX or XY

They won't be satisfied because they can't be. In the end, all they have is themselves. You can't sleep at night if you don't do right by people. We have the freedom of a clear conscience.

This is proper shocking. I'm not even that vocal about the self id issue (although I am against it) and I wouldn't go near Twitter if you paid me, but for a massive and influential site like MN to invite trolls to actively target their members is appalling. MN is different to a host like Google or even Reddit I think in that MN does editorialise, and it has a journalistic slant (promotes campaigns, has guests etc) but they really need to own what Justine asserted recently about free speech.
Honestly, I think sometimes passion and over immersion can make some posters comments seem a bit over the top, but I would absolutely defend their right to voice their opinions without being censored by non members!
Bad move MN.

The way I see it is, those at the top with have decided on a policy. It's all new, so they had some training workshops and emails. But so much will depend on instinct, a sense, independent judgement. There are bound to be mistakes at first, that's how a policy gets honed. This is the 'snagging' where JRfoes round and says 'no in that situation we wouldn't have needed to suspend' etc. That's what I think.

I still remember the moment when I just stopped everything in the middle of one of my ex's cluster B moments, looked him in the eye, and said "I know what you're doing".

Probably lucky he didn't hit me, honestly, but damn did it feel good.

Pointing Out the Bleeding Obvious is my new appropriate female-biologied slogan.

Could extend it into Pointing Out The Bleeding Obvious In Life for a better acronym.

I wish there was a way to transfer that visceral feeling of recognition that you get when you see narcissistic behavior once you've dealt with it before to everyone reading along and trying to make sense of this stuff. Once seen it can't be unseen, and as unpleasant as the first exposure is it works like a flu jab, except this one lasts forever.

This is so true. I've never been on the receiving end myself in a personal relationship but I have volunteered in areas where training is required (which is why I keep suggesting this to MNHQ). Once the penny drops and you can see past all the sound and fury to the bare bones of what is actually happening - well, as you say, you can never unsee it. And it becomes blindingly, blindingly obvious.

Own goal there, any and everyone who was hoping to reinforce compliance.

As in DV, the abusers are trying to make us look like the problem. So to the uninformed onlooker (police) they mistake the women's rage for her being the source of the problem - a very flawed assessment

This is the thing. Channeling their anger and insecurity into bullying women for their cause is a psychological displacement activity. They will never be satisfied.

Yep I call it disordered but it's same thing - they don't contain themselves and "act out" - i.e. project their internal state onto women - we are to blame, don't you know, for all their distress/s And worse still, they enjoy the conflict and relish the hunt

You know what's funny? The majority us are currently being even less naice and polite and obedient than we were a few days ago, because Shon's little stunt and MNHQs completely insane response have made a lot of us really fucking pissed off.

Own goal there, any and everyone who was hoping to reinforce compliance.

Yep I had my lived experience dismissed on here recently - like WTF - that's where the gold is - all of us who get this stuff on a body level - we've had baptism by fire.

That's why many men don't like/see women - because they don't have that sixth sense - they dismiss it as though it doesn't exist - but it does and it's real. And they don't like us congregating to discuss it, as that knowledge and wisdom gets shared and other women are educated. They get "triggered" and can't contain their rage….

Some would like us back in caves with them guarding the entrance.

Their avarice is bigger than the world. If we were starving in a gutter, they'd be looking for some way to take the gutter from us.

We need to do away with the idea of gender but keep the reality of biological sex.
Directly opposing trans ideology, which wants to do away with biological sex and base everything around the idea of gender. Insanity.

And yes Angry, entirely.

Though they won't be happy even then, because nobody can be happy when their peace of mind requires a complete denial of reality.)

This is the thing. Channeling their anger and insecurity into bullying women for their cause is a psychological displacement activity. They will never be satisfied.

Once seen it can't be unseen, and as unpleasant as the first exposure is it works like a flu jab, except this one lasts forever.

Damn right.

I wish there was a way to transfer that visceral feeling of recognition that you get when you see narcissistic behavior once you've dealt with it before to everyone reading along and trying to make sense of this stuff. Once seen it can't be unseen, and as unpleasant as the first exposure is it works like a flu jab, except this one lasts forever.

I am starting to think that Becca Riley-Cooper has a point and we should let the word 'woman' go

Over my dead body.

What will they go for next if we give them woman. And you can be sure they will go for something afterwards. Look at the way they are behaving over this FWR board. Complete capitulation is all they’ll accept. Shon Faye posted on twitter that he’ll keep badgering MNHQ and their advertisers until Shon gets Shon’s own way. TRAs will do the same with everything.

You cannot allow them to “win” even the slightest concession from you. They won’t be grateful. They won’t think well we’ve got woman so maybe we’ll let them keep menstruation or breastfeeding. Narcissists don’t work like that. They don’t compromise and if you stand up to them even once the only acceptable outcome for them is your total destruction.

Justine stood up to the TRAs in The Times. Now the TRAs and their handmaidens are seeking to take down Mumsnet. They cannot be given an inch.

And Babel agree that the abusive ‘activists’ (angry narcissists) want to erase women, that’s the logical conclusion of their arguments/complaints. And it’s how narcissism works (seeking erasure of non compliant people who won’t reflect the narcissist’s view of their self) .. as many of us can describe having encountered it before. You can’t unrecognise it.

The way many people use "gender" they mean "personality". Great, but there are 7 billion ish of those so as a method of classification maybe not the best way to go.

Well this seems as good a time as any to post a link to this thread by a trans woman, who seems fairly clear on what gender and sex are (there are a few holes by someone who deleted their posts).

Jenn is a Canadian version of our Miranda Yardley, speaking out against the TRA agenda, publicly stating facts like "sex is fact, gender is feelz" etc. So would they be allowed to say so here?

www.facebook.com/jennsmith64/posts/902565646584177

(Sidenote: on their profile it says "To see what he shares with friends, send him a friend request.")

We need to do away with the idea of gender but keep the reality of biological sex.

Gets my vote.

We need to do away with the idea of gender but keep the reality of biological sex.

Hear hear. The thing is they don’t want that. They want to co opt the sex as well. There are howls of transphobia for even discussing breastfeeding. Vaginas must be called front holes.
They don’t want to have the distinction. They want to own the sex quantifior too.

I understand her argument and in a reasonable world I’d be with her, but they don’t want any kind of compromise - only total erasure of women as a sex will do