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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Facebook employee uses access to stalk women

30 replies

QuarksandLeptons · 02/05/2018 20:55

Senior engineer at Facebook using insider information to stalk women online.

www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/02/facebook-engineer-fired-alleged-stalker-tinder

This story is unsettling as it adds to the evidence that social media platforms seem to attract misogynistic men as their employees. This coupled with the fact that said social media platforms shape public opinion is a very worrying phenomenon for women’s rights and representation.

I’m not saying this one weird man could shape and influence much on his own but with a tech culture that seems to embrace incel type men, the influence could be further reaching.

Like the Cambridge Analytica scandal proved, platforms like Facebook have powers over public discourse that no private corporation should have. Voting in Trump & influencing Brexit are obvious cases but it seems a core contingent of misogynistic men working for these companies may also be shaping as influencing regressive and violent attitudes towards women.

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/05/2018 08:27

The international aspect to this is really worrying in terms of international reach and more fundamentally whether uk regulation is adequate anyway. The UK attitude so far seems to be that what we have will do. hmm we also have Brexit coming.

I think the issue is the law can't contain the abuse but no-one wants to name the elephant in the room. FB just moved a huge swathe of its users onto different located platforms to deliberately avoid EU legation btw.

You can't legislate for this stuff unless huge financial penalties are imposed on any tech platforms that enables abuse against women. We haven't even managed to do that with real life abuse so cyberspace will be a long time coming especially so as it crosses national boundaries. And really the politicians either don't have a clue or wilfully ignore the wholesale annihilation of women online, in my experience

womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/05/2018 07:42

Oddly enough, The Good Wife and – even more – it's successor series, The Good Fight,

I need to re-watch them for specifics but I recall they had a lot of cases around tech - a really great way of highlighting the tech abuse at play

womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/05/2018 07:39

Among these is Slack, the group-messaging company, which is widely praised for having made diversity a priority from early on, rather than having to go back and try to reengineer it in.

Let's just say my experience of some of that organisation doesn't bear this out, disappointingly

womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/05/2018 07:38

This myth, perpetrated by media, is what puts women off and don't the boys like to exploit it: Such bias may be particularly rife in Silicon Valley because of another of its foundational beliefs: that success in tech depends almost entirely on innate genius. Nobody thinks that of lawyers or accountants or even brain surgeons; while some people clearly have more aptitude than others, it’s accepted that law school is where you learn law and that preparing for and passing the CPA exam is how you become a certified accountant. Surgeons are trained, not born. In contrast, a 2015 study published in Science confirmed that computer science and certain other fields, including physics, math, and philosophy, fetishize “brilliance,” cultivating the idea that potential is inborn. The report concluded that these fields tend to be problematic for women, owing to a stubborn assumption that genius is a male trait.

tl;dr tech is just another skill and men aren't better at it - that's the myth

womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/05/2018 07:36

Re the Atlantic article - very interesting. Things have got worse for women since the early gains in the 70s /80s. I think the problem lies in leaving diversity to the education sector. It has never protected or encouraged women- unless women only schools. In the 70s and 80s the big computer companies recruited grads from any discipline and cross trained the technical knowledge. That stopped with the rise of PCs.

Unless financial incentives and consequences are applied, there will be no change. Unless of course we get a whole raft of TIMs recruited under the women's quota. The financial incentives have always been the motivation for diversity, like it or not and as soon as the incentives stop, so does diversity - no matter how much people point it out - as the article says, highlighting it seems to cement it as "normal":

A 2010 study, “The Paradox of Meritocracy in Organizations,” found that in cultures that espouse meritocracy, managers may in fact “show greater bias in favor of men over equally performing women.” In a series of three experiments, the researchers presented participants with profiles of similarly performing individuals of both genders, and asked them to award bonuses. The researchers found that telling participants that their company valued merit-based decisions only increased the likelihood of their giving higher bonuses to the men.

The study authors considered several alternative explanations for the low numbers of women in those fields—including that women might not want to work long hours and that there might be more men at the high end of the aptitude spectrum, an idea notoriously put forward in 2005 by then–Harvard President Larry Summers.
But the data did not support these other theories.
“The more a field valued giftedness, the fewer the female PhDs,” the study found, pointing out that the same pattern held for African Americans. Because both groups still tend to be “stereotyped as lacking innate intellectual talent,” the study concluded, “the extent to which practitioners of a discipline believe that success depends on sheer brilliance is a strong predictor of women’s and African Americans’ representation.”
…Indeed. At Google, the initial tally showed that just 17 percent of its technical employees were women. The female technical force was 10 percent at Twitter, 15 percent at Facebook, and 20 percent at Apple. Granted, women currently make up just 18 percent of computer-science majors, but these companies are so well funded and attractive that they should be able to get a disproportionate percentage of the pipeline. The firms resolved to do better, and began looking for new ways to attract and retain women. Their approaches include measures like recruiting from a broader array of colleges and creating more internships. But the flashiest—and most copied—approach is something called unconscious-bias training.

But there’s a problem. Unconscious-bias training may not work. Some think it could even backfire. Though the approach is much more congenial than the “sensitivity training” popular in the 1980s and ’90s—in which white men were usually cast as villains—it suffers from the same problem: People resent being made to sit in a chair and listen to somebody telling them how to act. Forcing them to do so can provoke the fundamental human urge to reply: No thanks, I’ll do the opposite.

They may even become more biased. A 2015 study by Michelle M. Duguid of Cornell University and Melissa C. Thomas-Hunt of the University of Virginia demonstrates the peril of normalizing bad behavior. Stigmatizing certain behaviors, such as littering and alcohol abuse, makes people realize they are acting outside the norm and has proved to be a powerful way of changing these behaviors. Conversely, messages presenting good behavior as a social norm—“the majority of guests reuse their towels”—can make people embrace this behaviour.
So what happens when you say that bias is natural and dwells within all of us? Duguid and Thomas-Hunt found that telling participants that many people hold stereotypes made them more likely to exhibit bias—in the case of the study, against women, overweight people, or the elderly. The researchers also suggest, provocatively, that even just talking too much about gender inequities can serve to normalize them: When you say over and over that women come up against a glass ceiling, people begin to accept that, yes, women come up against a glass ceiling—and that’s just the way it is.

“You would think all things are equal,” she said, “but these backdoor conversations are happening in settings that women are not invited to. The whole boys’-club thing still applies. If you party with the right people at Burning Man, you’re going to be part of this boys’ club.” As for calling people out in meetings, it sounds like a good idea, she said, but she never saw anyone do it. “It’s just—are you really going to be that person?”

Diversity consultants and advocacy groups say they remain frustrated by tech companies’ unwillingness to change core parts of their culture. It is, for example, a hallowed tradition that in job interviews, engineers are expected to stand up and code on whiteboards, a high-pressure situation that works to the disadvantage of those who feel out of place. Indeed, whiteboard sessions are rife with opportunities for biased judgment. At Stanford, Shelley Correll works with a graduate student who, for his dissertation, sat in on a whiteboarding session in which a problem had an error in it; when one female job candidate sensed this and kept asking questions, evaluators felt that all her questions suggested she wasn’t competent.

Now, it’s true that lots of companies have hiring goals. But to make its goals a little more, well, quota-like, Intel introduced money into the equation. In Intel’s annual performance-bonus plan, success in meeting diversity goals factors into whether the company gives employees an across-the-board bonus. (The amounts vary widely but can be substantial.) If diversity efforts succeed, everybody at the company gets a little bit richer.

Intel has also introduced efforts to improve retention, including a “warm line” employees can use to report a problem—feeling stuck in their career, or a conflict with a manager—and have someone look into it. A new initiative will take data from the warm line and from employee exit interviews to give managers customized playbooks. If a group is losing lots of women, for instance, the manager will get data on why they’re leaving and how to address the issue.

PerkingFaintly · 05/05/2018 11:45

So, good aspirations. Let's see if they can deliver...

PerkingFaintly · 05/05/2018 11:43

More from the Green Paper (pp38-39):

Government strategies
There are a number of existing strategies which seek to protect internet users from online harm and the Internet Safety Strategy will support these efforts.

These strategies include:
• The Ending Violence Against Women and Girls (VAWG) Strategy, published in March 2017, emphasises the importance of protecting people from these crimes online and offline, as well as addressing offending specifically facilitated by the Internet. The Strategy commits to working with law enforcement and online safety forums to ensure the risk posed by online VAWG is understood, and that all victims have the confidence to report these crimes. We are clear that civil orders, as well as legislation, apply equally online as offline, and we have committed to introduce new Stalking Protection Civil Orders, which will have the power to place restrictions on stalkers’ online, as well as offline behaviours.
[...]
• The Hate Crime Action Plan, launched in July 2016, focuses on five key areas:
1. Preventing hate crime by challenging beliefs and attitudes;
2. Responding to hate crime within our communities;
3. Increasing the reporting of hate crime;
4. Improving support for victims of hate crime; and
5. Building our understanding of hate crime.

PerkingFaintly · 05/05/2018 11:30

The Department of Culture, Media & Sport is involved in this within the UK. This is where they're at, to date:

www.gov.uk/government/news/government-outlines-next-steps-to-make-the-uk-the-safest-place-to-be-online
The Prime Minister has announced plans to review laws and make sure that what is illegal offline is illegal online as the Government marks Safer Internet Day.

I've only quickly skipped through the green paper just now, but seems worth a proper look:

Internet Safety Strategy – Green paper October 2017
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/650949/Internet_Safety_Strategy_green_paper.pdf
Police response to online hate crime
As part of this Strategy, the Home Office are creating a new national police online hate crime hub. The hub will act as a single point through which all reports of online hate crime are channeled. Specially trained officers will liaise with the victim and use their knowledge of online hate crime to collect relevant evidence that will be needed by the CPS to bring a prosecution. Evidence and any preliminary investigative work to identify the perpetrator will then be allocated to the relevant police force where the alleged offence took place to take forward the investigation. The hub will provide local forces with guidance or specialist knowledge. This will provide victims with a better service and will make it more likely that prosecutions can be brought.

I do know the govt have been asking tech companies to come up with technical solutions to the the whack-a-mole problems that woman describes. Currently, a sender of malicious comms can hide themselves very effectively by all sort of tricks.

ChattyLion · 05/05/2018 08:54

Flowers woman, spareRib

The international aspect to this is really worrying in terms of international reach and more fundamentally whether uk regulation is adequate anyway.
The UK attitude so far seems to be that what we have will do. Hmm we also have Brexit coming.

The European Commission (who propose legislation to the EU) seem to be making noises in the right direction in terms of gender (they may mean sex?) considerations. They at least encourage companies to consider ‘gender’ as part of responsibile research innovation (RRI) which would cover things like algorithms and robots:

‘RRI requires that all stakeholders including civil society are responsive to each other and take shared responsibility for the processes and outcomes of research and innovation.

This means working together in: science education; the definition of research agendas; the conduct of research; the access to research results; and the application of new knowledge in society- in full respect of gender equality, the gender dimension in research and ethics considerations.’

ec.europa.eu/research/swafs/pdf/rome_declaration_RRI_final_21_November.pdf

womanformallyknownaswoman · 05/05/2018 07:26

No you're not spamming al all - I am very interested and have done a lot of research in this year plus had the experience of tech being weaponised to target me, as well as supporting other women who have been on the receiving end of tech abuse - so very on point.

Will be back later when more time

PerkingFaintly · 04/05/2018 23:10

Oddly enough, The Good Wife and – even more – it's successor series, The Good Fight, are very on the ball in portraying machine learning, Facebook micro-targetting and the like.

FermatsTheorem · 04/05/2018 21:44

Perking I remember reading about the COMPAS algorithm somewhere else - scary stuff, especially since there's this popular view that's sprung up that computer systems are somehow impartial and above being questioned.

QuarksandLeptons · 04/05/2018 21:33

*womanformerly

So sorry to hear what you’ve been through - I can’t even begin to imagine how stressful and life affecting that must have been / still is. Have you got support?

I’m reading a book at the moment that be of interest called the Cyber Effect by Mary Aiken? I’m half way through and finding it really thought provoking / informative/ terrifying. The author is a cyber forensic pathologist who is an academic as well as working with the CIA. She discusses how new technology & social media are fanning the flames of pathologies that until recently we’re barely heard of and now are becoming mainstream- she also dedicates large sections to stalking behaviour.

Perking Faintly Thanks for those links. Sound fascinating, will definitely read.

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PerkingFaintly · 04/05/2018 21:16

(Sorry if I seem to be spamming the thread with links: these are issues I've been concerned about for a while.)

PerkingFaintly · 04/05/2018 21:11

Indeed. ProPublica's been doing a lot of work on this. Series here: www.propublica.org/series/machine-bias

Eg
How We Analyzed the COMPAS Recidivism Algorithm
www.propublica.org/article/how-we-analyzed-the-compas-recidivism-algorithm
Our analysis of Northpointe’s tool, called COMPAS (which stands for Correctional Offender Management Profiling for Alternative Sanctions), found that black defendants were far more likely than white defendants to be incorrectly judged to be at a higher risk of recidivism, while white defendants were more likely than black defendants to be incorrectly flagged as low risk.

Bowlofbabelfish · 04/05/2018 20:15

Machine learning systems reflect the biases of the people who program them.

God yes. This is such a good point. DH brought this up the other day actually when we were talking about news bias on social media. The algorithms that display news etc on your social media are not driven by quality, fact checked sourcing or truth index, they’re driven effectively by ‘goadiness.’ A story that’s attracted loads of comments on an extremist website for example could be promoted over a factually checked version from a reputable news source.

It’s why the news bias on sites like FB was so controversial in the elections.

PerkingFaintly · 04/05/2018 11:36

This US article is long, and focussing more on career-limiting bias than the hardcore end of this behaviour like stalking and threats of sexual violence, but it's all part of the same picture.

Why Is Silicon Valley So Awful to Women?
www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-silicon-valley-so-awful-to-women/517788/

womanformallyknownaswoman · 04/05/2018 11:24

Thx PerkingFaintly

Yep I agree - the USA is so regressive re tech culture. I read about Twitter office dos where they're modelled on frat parties - yawn….

PerkingFaintly · 04/05/2018 11:17

Flowers womanformallyknownaswoman How absolutely grim. I'm so sorry some jerk has been putting you through that.

The news about the Facebook engineer surprises me not the littlest bit.

Article here, but this is just a UK one – plenty more from the US: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/30/misogyny-tech-ceremony-women-digital-entrepreneur-awards

TotallyLibrarianPoo · 04/05/2018 02:53

Awww thanksSmile @womanformallyknownaswoman

womanformallyknownaswoman · 04/05/2018 02:10

@TotallyLibrarianPoo

Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers
GinGinGinGin

SpareRibFem · 03/05/2018 23:05

Mostly irl, were talking about an approx 3 decade span for me (not all the same stalker fortunately and there are gaps with no stalking going on) cyberstalking has a shorter history than that

TotallyLibrarianPoo · 03/05/2018 16:47

Just read your update @womanformallyknownaswoman
What a complete and utter bastard! I'm very sorry that happened to youFlowersGin

womanformallyknownaswoman · 03/05/2018 12:48

The tech business is full of misogynistic men, being stalked every so often is a way of life for women working in it 😢

Sounds unacceptable - do you mean irl or cyberstalking?

SpareRibFem · 03/05/2018 08:27

The tech business is full of misogynistic men, being stalked every so often is a way of life for women working in it 😢

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