Apparently men can get PND too

No. Not worse. But equal when it occurs- albeit less frequently than it occurs in women.

Male postpartum depression affects women negatively.

Denying it doesn’t help women.

Technically post partum means after bringing forth. So I suppose if a man brings forth summat he should go right ahead and name his depression should he suffer it post partum.
11th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.

Out and proud feminist, but I agree with others who don't think you can say this is off-limits to men.

There's an ante-natal ward and a post- natal ward. Doesn't mean the ward has given birth.

If you epwant to specify that something occurs after actually giving birth, surely the term is post-parturative?

Antenatal and postnatal refer to the the period before and after birth and are totally correctly applied to anyone.

I think the belittling of MH issues in anyone is wrong. Doing so on the basis of a non-standard interpretation of of language, in order to belittle some patients is really wrong.

the problem is that using a term which is supposed to be for the depression experienced by mothers due to giving birth.

But that is a misinterpretation of the term. For example, the NHS website makes no mention of a giving birth being a prerequisite for developing PND.

Hormones are not mentioned at all in the possible causes, and this perception is actually debunked in the myths, along with the misconception that it is an exclusively female issue.

It suggests that 4/100 men may suffer from this. So that questions the idea of the ‘12th rule of misogyny’ being applicable here.

In contrast, Postpartum Psychosis is explained as an entirely a female issue, that occurs as a result of giving birth. Not taking away from the seriousness of PND at all, but it is markedly more dangerous.

They are two separate diagnoses and while one can lead to the next, the terms PND and PP should not be used interchangeably.

I read about some research showing that fatherhood lowers testosterone, so there may be a hormonal element in depression men experience as new fathers.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/fatherhood-lowers-testosterone-keeps-dads-at-home/

I'm sure men can get post-birth trauma, I've known some (as a midwife). They'd often not go to any antenatal classes,then pitch up in labour & be horrified about what was going on. Even in a straightforward delivery. Sometimes led to postnatal sex problems in the man too. I'm sure I read some years ago that adoptive parents can also go through depression after adopting. Let's not belittle it but let's research it instead, find some ways to improve things.

I believe that and don't see this as being much different to Post Adoption Depression. I guess the hormonal changes could make a difference though so maybe Twittlebee is right, New Parent Depression

I agree completely with this

Hormones are obviously part of (a large part of?) PND for women who have given birth, but not exclusively. The other triggers that can take someone from "baby blues" to PND can be present for the parent who hasn't delivered too

'Scathingly ponders why suicide rates are so high in men under 50 when their wives casually threaten murder if they disclose any weaknesses in their mental health...'

Its not 'disclosing weaknesses in mental health' that anyone has an issue with, Its using the term PND.

Depression is a serious issue and of course men should talk about it and receive treatment... the problem is that using a term which is supposed to be for the depression experienced by mothers due to giving birth. Its not even that one is any 'worse' than the other.. its just that they are DIFFERENT things which have different causes and need different treatment.

Birth can have a profound effect on men and women and they may both need help. But you cannot and should not say that the experience of giving birth is the same for men and women because it is most certainly not.

Experiencing depression or psychosis because of stress and lack of sleep can happen to either parent but it is only the woman who will be experiencing the hormonal element of this which is what the term PND is referring to.

My PP was not caused by lack of sleep or anything like that, it was immediate after delivery. I could not recognise anyones faces and could not understand what was being said to me. I thought the baby they gave me was made from rubber! Ive never been so scared in my life. And although some of it may have been down to the trauma of labour, it really was a hormonal thing and a specific reaction that women only are at risk of.

Spend time in a mother and baby unit and you will see how distinct the depression and psychosis that women experience after birth is from that experienced by men. Its a specific illness and it specifically effects women because of what their bodies and minds have just gone through.

Strong feminist here. But my dear sensitive brother definitely had PND after his first dc. He was shocked, hugely sleep-deprived and overwhelmed.

PND seems to be a term widely used in the scientific literature on the subject (I just had a quick look on google scholar).

I work with expectant and new parents and the message we are asked to give by mental health organisations and the NHS is that men can get PND and birth trauma and PTSD in the post-partum period. A lot of PND is not hormonal, it arises from.problems adjusting to the massive life change and can be from witnessing a traumatic birth. I have known quite a few new dad's who I have thought were quite traumatised after a bad birth or poor care. I think birth is a huge feminist issue but not this particular facet.

There was a thread on this last year.

It doesn't matter what it's called... calling it post natal depression in men doesn't take anything away from the women who suffer from post natal depression and it's important that there is an established term which is taken seriously by the medical profession to describe what men may suffer after the birth of their child. It is far more important that people of either sex suffering after the birth of their child receive appropriate treatment and support than that a technically correct term is used. Perhaps, over time, it would be better if a separate term be developed to distinguish the condition in men from the condition in women as I suspect there are differences, not least hormonal. But as there is currently no such established term, let's focus on getting people who are suffering the help they need.

Whatever you call it they can get ill in the period after they become a father.

I’m usually fully on the side of the feminist board prevailing opinion but not on this. If any human being is suffering from depression of any kind they need support.

And from my POV I know, first hand. What it’s like to have a newborn, wonder if you have PND and simultaneously watch my husband spiral into depression.

It’s not fun. And saying ‘it doesn’t exist’ would have hurt me as much as it hurt him.

Yes, I believe they do and it can be very serious. Are you equally outraged about men getting breast cancer?

Men can get stress induced depression not pnd ...

I think men can suffer massively after the birth of a child and that does need to be addressed and acknowledged... however there needs to be a different term for this depression as the one suffered by women can be in part hormonal and become quickly very dangerous and severe.

I suffered from Postpartum Psychosis after giving birth and it was horrendous. PND can very quickly change into this and it is not the same as the depression experienced by men. The PND in women needs to be approached differently to any post birth depression experienced by men and so I dont think its helpful to use the same name for them both.

11th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.

I believe that and don't see this as being much different to Post Adoption Depression. I guess the hormonal changes could make a difference though so maybe Twittlebee is right, New Parent Depression.

DH's colleague wasn't "a bit pissed off", he was shattered, at risk and hospitalised.

It is v important that we don't belittle mental health issues in this way.

I'd murder dh if he tried to say he had this

Scathingly ponders why suicide rates are so high in men under 50 when their wives casually threaten murder if they disclose any weaknesses in their mental health...

Sorry, I don't agree. 'Post-natal' means 'the period after childbirth' it says NOTHING about actually giving birth.

Of course men can become depressed after the birth of a child, it's as much an upheaval in their lives as it is in the mother's.

Stop getting offended by things that aren't there.

I was flamed on here years ago for doubting this!
I'm sure they can get a bit pissed off with the lifestyle changes and tiredness but they aren't also recovering from massive body trauma and hormonal crap!
I'd murder dh if he tried to say he had this

I am sure DH had it, twice. Feeling depressed in the post-birth period doesn't seem like something that's exclusive to women who become parents.

X post SOH