Motherhood and equality, what does Eutopia look like?

Caring work is so unsatisfying in part because of the stigma and low status which has been attributed to it by patriarchy and is reinforced by culture and the structure of the economy. IMO.

Companies really don’t like part timers.

They probably don't like maternity leave, shared parental leave, sickness benefits, annual leave etc either.

As another poster said, legislation needs to force social change.
Without that change, men will continue to shrug their shoulders and say 'well what can you do? I would have gone down to 4 days a week but you know you just can't in my kind of job'.

Meanwhile thousands of women (including in a range of well paid professional jobs) somehow manage to work part-time (and often as a consequence shoulder the lions share of child rearing and housework, whilst now earning less than their partner).

The real question is how do you make men value childcare as much as they value that next promotion/pay rise/shiny new job?
It's impossible to have utopia without that.

Bumpity, regarding the women needing more time depending, I still see that as medical needs of the mother and similar to any illness or depression. In fact, treating it as that and the parental leave for the baby (which I propose to be equally the fathers responsibility from day 1) means the Mum can recover and repair without also single handedly managing and minding a newborn. This is true freedom and equality.

As for breastfeeding meaning the Mum HAS to take the baby, well that’s irrelevant for the many formula feeders and is maybe a decision to be made in conjunction with who takes leave first. A decision made by both parents without the assumption that it’s the Mum and separate to the mums leave she’ll take for body (and maybe mind) recovery.

I was fulfilling my ultimate expression of womanhood by taking my children to school

I entirely agree re the points made about contraception.

I see hormonal contraception for women as a tool which is more oppressive than liberating and have often said it is for the benefit of men as a class not women because of all these arguments and I have been laughed at and derided primarily by feminists TBH!

I totally believe it is a flaw in the class analysis positioning (wrongly) positioning children as the enemy of women and more broadly caring work (no matter who performs it) as low status and debasing.

This I see as internalised misogyny when coming from feminists.

The problem as I see it is the status attributed to caring/bearing by patriarchy. The solution is higher status both socially and economically for what is, if you step outside the patriarchal narrative to consider it, the most fundamentally important work for humanity as a whole.

This is in fact why it is smeared by patriarchy. Because it will always be more important than most things...

Where we are now it is more generally the things (caring, innovation, advancement of understanding through science, creativity etc etc) which are being restrained under patriarchal capitalism.

I don't like the idea of putting babies just exiting the so called fourth trimester into childcare....Some women will bounce back from it all and be ready to get back to work whilst others may be suffering long term effects both physically and mentally (PND etc)

Yes, I do agree, but, I found that being able to do some normal things rather than being stuck in a baby bubble really helped me. I don't mean being forced to do anything, but, that first walk around the block when DS1 was a couple of weeks old and I left him with his dad, and by 3 months, wanting to start nosing back into my job a bit (I'm a freelance programmer, so I could). I know it's unusual, but I actually took meetings from clients whilst breastfeeding (this works until they're mobile/vocal!), and it was fine, all the people I work with regularly now are parents and have similar demands on their time/restrictions on availability, and the difference is striking compared to when I was in a traditional role, with men who delegated all their childcare to their wives.

grumpy I managed to come back and get shifted sideways. The way it was done was appalling and a real stab in the back.
I debated whether to fight it, it was illegal and I might have won a case but what then? You never know what kind of blacklisting Gowan on so I reviewed and decided to make the best I could out of it.
After a LOT of hard work it’s actually been to my benefit because I’m out from under a particularly awful boss and now under one who a lot of people seem to find difficult but I actually seem to do Ok with. It’s also a different division with more upward potential progression. I’ve managed to negotiate hours that are flexible which works both ways - they get me late night or early if they need to and I get to leave early for pickups other days. It took a LOT of fighting to get and thankfully HR were on board.
I’m lucky in that I’m a scientist with quite an niche set of skills doing a difficult job that’s in demand so I’m not too easy to replace (I hope I’m also good at my job and had built up a lot of ‘karma capital’ as well.)

I don’t kid myself that I’m irreplaceable, and I couldn’t have done this even five years earlier. In that sense I’m glad I had my kid (and upcoming one) later.

It really shouldn’t be this hard, should it? Dh has had zero issues negotiating his hours, (flexible but long, he often works very late) and is regularly praised for being an amazing hands on dad.

I suppose in my utopia there would be recognition that if you treat people like adults and give them flexibility they will repay you with good work. That retaining staff with a decade or two of experience is a good thing.

When we were trying to decide what to do when my last mat leave ended we discussed us both going to PT (4 days each). Then we realised that would just mean both of us were on the slow track.

And since I went back part time, I’ve been passed over for many opportunities, roles and projects which ‘require someone there 5 days’ which to my mind proves us right.

Companies really don’t like part timers. Until that changes, I can’t see many men voluntarily stepping up to also be screwed over.

That's awful! And blatant discrimination! How are things now you are back? You said you're working flexibly despite resistance. I suppose they didn't give you your reporting lines back? How long were you off for?

In my industry at the moment there is a LOT of scrutiny on gender pay gap and diversity so I'm hoping that will make them think twice. I'm hoping to just hold on to the status quo at least (taking

I had a stellar performance review on he Monday, told I’d get promoted, told them I was pregnant on the Wednesday and had my reporting lines removed by the Friday. They then spent the next months trying to make me leave.

So, so frustrating. It’s hard work isn’t it? At least you’ve got the support at home - that is a huge deal.

@Bowlofbabelfish I feel exactly the same. I've had to constantly ram down my employer's throat that my husband will be taking SPL. I'm going on maternity leave in 3 months time (and will probably only take 5/6 months off) but the change in attitude from my bosses since I told them has been palpable. I was on track for a big promotion (& actually someone who was competing with me for it has now left so it should very obviously be given to me) but now I'm seen as irrelevant ("oh but you won't be here...") despite the fact they know I'm not taking much time off. All impossible to prove of course. But I've never felt sexism at work until now. And I make 3x what my DH earns. The external expectations are so limiting.

Oh yes contraception...

There is a woeful lack of good, low side effect methods that are reliable. Recent trials on male contraceptives were halted because the side effects were deemed unacceptable- the very same type of side effects that women are expected to put up with. I’m sure that shocks none of us.

We are expected to shoulder the burden of hormonal contraception over decades while men blithely get in with it. Then they debate about their choice in abortion or whether they should pay for offspring or not.

As though they had no choice in having sex. The level of responsibility for the woman is when they have sex (which may or May not be consensual) the level of responsibility for men is whenever they feel like abandoning their children.

So as well as contraception I want to make child maintenance compulsory. And enforceable

Definitely more flexibility at work - for everyone, not just parents. There are plenty of reasons why a person might want to work from home, or do compressed hours or flexi-time. And while not all jobs can accomodate those things, there are plenty that can, but don't. Why is this? I know in the case of where I used to work, it was because the CEO didn't trust the staff not to abuse it - the same staff who were referred to as a 'family' and expected to go above and beyond constantly.

As others have said, we as a society are stuck trying to fit ourselves into a working model that was designed in the industrial revolution - we don't send children up chimneys or under cotton looms any more, so why aren't we trying to move beyond that model in other ways as well?

And society needs to reduce the stigma around SAHDs. We went back to the town where I grew up some months ago, and dh was laughed at in the street because he was pushing the pushchair . He's not bothered but plenty of men would be.

Also, when a parent does stay at home for a couple of years, there should be more support for getting back into the workplace - perhaps loans available for retraining? Encouragement for companies to have returnships?

And finally, more subsidised childcare, and for childcare to be a more respected career option. It's an important, skilled job, and should be recognised as such.

Motherhood may be a choice for individual women but for humanity at large it's not a choice. No babies, no humans. It annoys me the onus for motherhood is all put on women.

I would also argue that contraception has exacerbated this "choice" argument as it is often portrayed that contraception is infallible and provides women the ability to choose. Where the reality is that contraceptive failures happen a lot and there are many unplanned children out there.

In my utopia work patterns would change to 6 days working days over a week, but the you could only work 4 of them.
That would encourage more shared care.

I’m learning offred

The older I get the more I think the scales fall from your eyes. Male privilege and the lengths they will go to to defend it is at the root of this.

Dh is a good man, an equal parent, and all that. And we’ve still struggled to thrash out an equal way of working and parenting because our companies are so mired in this idea that a successful man has a wife at home. For us the pressure is external. For women fighting internally within the family unit too or against abuse I can’t begin to imagine how hard it is.

My company have done everything they can to make it hard for me to work flexibly, despite it being their own fucking policy!

That and the experience of two pregnancies has really shown me how entrenched misogyny is. I wasn’t prepared for how much pregnancy birth and young kids would affect me physically and mentally. Now I know, I see how that interacts with the corporate world and society and their expectations to keep women down and im really fucking angry about it.

I also live in a Scandinavian country. Here (Sweden) you have the right to up to 120 days a year to care for a sick child (we’ve only used 4-5 this year but it’s great to have the option.)
You get 480 paid days per child of parental leave. Paid more if you split it equally. You can stretch it out and get paid only 1 day a week for the first year so you can spend longer at home with them. Father DO take more parental leave - still not perfect but better than the Uk.
Fathers are expected to take those sick child days along with mothers. Dh and I split them 50:50. We split everything. We are equal partners.
Subsidised high quality childcare - 150 quid equivalent for the first child a month then lower for subsequent or for lower income. Quality is excellent, teaching in preschool is seen as a lifetime career. Men are well represented.
Children are not narrowly gender stereotyped - the weather is fucking awful here so they all wear outdoor gear and you can’t really tell the girls from the boys. That also feeds into the gender equality.
Men here seem to be happier to take parental leave. I see lots of men taking the childcare on. It’s not perfect but far fewer men here just let the wife do everything - there is generally more equal parenting.

There are VERY few sahp of either sex. All the ones I know are expats. The expectation is you both work, both contribute etc. The thread of equality runs much deeper here.

A huge yes to the pp who says that legislation is the start of social change. When they first introduced the equal parental leave here takeup wasn’t great. So they introduced a bonus for splitting equally and ‘use it or lose it’ days for both partners. That’s driven increased uptake.

The key here is positive legislation AND a more equal society with less gender stereotyping. Those early lessons in equality for preschoolers do filter through.

Here is not utopia - but it’s making positive strides.

I have also raised many times that this is an analysis of privilege. Privileged work lives, privileged experiences of pregnancy and birth etc

Most women would not relate their experiences of pregnancy and birth or work to those ideas.

I always feel like they are positioning children as ‘the enemy’ rather than patriarchy in that kind of feminism.

Totally agree @fascinated.

I have been to way too many women’s meetings where the ‘radical’ idea suggested is that women go back to work the day after birth and that babies are raised entirely in state nursery...

Women ‘own’ children in our society and even with the best lawyer in the world men can do very little to get equality with the Mum. So in order for us to get overall equality in life, I think we need to accept the loss of our power in this area.

This isn't true at all - courts start at 50/50 care during divorce, access to children by the non-resident parent, even if abusive, is common, maintenance is completely detached from care rights etc.

In the US, research shows that if a man makes any effort, they are more likely to get custody than the mother.

If you mean societally - then this is within men's power to change - they just need to step up and start taking care of their own children - packing lunches and PE kits, arranging dental appointments etc.

But that's a very NAMALT response to this thread.

I think that for the Eutopia, society needs to recognise that children bloody exist, that they need looking after, and that it's good for society for children to be well looked after. I think that 3 day weeks for both parents is preferable to one parent working a 5 day week, I think that for many jobs, flexibility is much more possible than is allowed right now. I think that large companies should have on-site creches, and that if a company requires its employees to work round the clock (eg shift work) then they have a responsibility to ensure that suitable childcare is available to those employees at a reasonable cost.

Oops wrong smiley! Was meant to be

Also; Babel, having said on the other thread you are good on science but lacking on feminist analysis, I beg to differ re your post at 07.41 on this thread

And as for returning to work after 3 months- no thanks

Equality doesn’t mean pretending biology has no impact

Enough of us have suffered physically and mentally with pregnancy and childbirth. As a society we should honour that and allow our bodies, minds and newborns to fully recover from labour and birth. Which means men stepping back from work too to support around that time.

I live in a Scandinavian country. It’s still not perfect, but there are a lot of good things.

Parental leave lasts a year after the birth of a child. You only get the full year (paid) if you split the time (nine months is the maximum the mother can take).

If both parents are working, they can each take 10 days paid leave each year when their children are unwell.

Because fathers take part of the parental leave, they are more likely to be actively involved in childcare. When parents split, it often happens that residency is 50:50

The long stretches of parental leave and the need for flexibility around childcare have an interesting effect on workplaces. In comparison to the U.K., workplaces have to be more forgiving about unexpected absence. Personal experience suggests there is less infectious illness in nurseries and schools, though that is only my subjective experience.

Because of workplace flexibility, those without children also have more freedom. It’s not uncommon for people to take six months or a year off work to pursue other interests, such as travel or to work in a different environment.

The oppressed and the traumatised often live only in the past and present.