Motherhood and equality, what does Eutopia look like?

offred - cheers

I didn’t do a biscuit, has one appeared?

Maybe you continue to keep the SPL system but then offer the father 3-6 months fully paid leave in addition, exclusively for his use. That would allow many more variations to be possible. Current uptake of SPL is very low (even 9m / 3m) because the father is then on statutory pay and this is unaffordable for many couples.

Also the fact that your exact role is only protected for 26 weeks mean that it's much easier for employers to side line women who take more than 6 months off (which although it's right for me, is too short for many women) and so you often don't even get your job back, not exactly motivational!

It was applause not a slow hand clap!

I totally agree.

I also think it is OK for nursery to be about mothers.

I do think some of the benefits to children only exist because of how we have structured the world though. They are not necessarily inherent benefits IMO but benefits that arise as a consequence of other structural issues.

offred why the slow hand clap and the biscuit ? Have you read the book?

I don’t think we need to justify nursery by saying ‘it is so much better for the child’ in short.

I have some issues re studies about nursery and value to education. My understanding is that it is not at all proven that the measured educational ‘benefits’ of nursery education are in any way lasting and they are used to prop up a. Standardised testing which requires learning by rote (anathema to critical analysis), b. Prejudice against low income/young mothers and c. The low value status of caring/high value status of waged work.

I do think it is clear that high quality childcare from 3 is probably not harmful though and that high quality childcare from younger may not be either but I am highly sceptical re ‘benefits to the child of nursery’ though at the same time irritated by the idea that is implied by that that all that is important is the mother prioritising the child. IMO it is about balancing needs of children and carers.

The utopia In women on the edge of time has no nuclear families and no real sense of motherhood

👏🏻

Men (as a class) do not want to ask or comprehensively consider the question ‘why is waged work important?’

It is a question that women as a class ask and answer all the time as part of their existence.

" I absolutely think that any woman who wants to share leave should be encouraged to do so but I don't like the thought of women being pressured to do so when they've been through such a life altering experience that just isn't the same for a man."

But why does a man's leave have to be at the expense of the woman's? In Sweden they have a few months which are use it or lose it for the dad. This could be added on to the end of standard maternity leave, if you still think 9 months is too short for women. Men have to be "forced" to participate, otherwise (generally) they just won't.

I actually think the wide spread expectation that most women will take 12 months off (while men do not) is damaging to our prospects at work and perpetuates employer bias against women. I'd like to see a lot more variety in what couples do. And many more men taking time out.
I was questioned on baby plans as soon as I turned 30 and got married. Would that be happening if there was a broader variety of leave patterns between men and women?

The utopia In women on the edge of time has no nuclear families and no real sense of motherhood

Brilliant thread. Placemarking so I can read later. Thanks OP. I’m so in agreement with you.

*our change our understanding 🤦🏻‍♀️

The current panic about unemployment and zero hours and low wages etc is again, IMO, a flawed analysis which automatically assumes that waged work is a. The only means of survival/contribution/stimulation etc and b. Losing waged work of various kinds is in itself a problem for humanity.

The problem is not so much the loss of waged work or technology replacing jobs but the failure to move away from the waged work model or change or understanding of contribution to society as technology replaces jobs.

This is again patriarchy as much as capitalism, if not more IMO, as waged work is a major tool of the oppression of women.

Without that change, men will continue to shrug their shoulders and say 'well what can you do? I would have gone down to 4 days a week but you know you just can't in my kind of job'.

In our case, we both work in industries/positions where you are likely to be re-organised or downsized at any point. So in our case, we valued the security of one of us not being on the easily-dispensable track more than we valued DH doing the childcare on a Monday. It wasn’t about status or pay rise, it was about keeping roof over family’s head. (A pressure he feels much more keenly than I do, because Man.)

It was absolutely nothing to do with him shrugging shoulders and letting me pick up the slack.

"The real question is how do you make men value childcare as much as they value that next promotion/pay rise/shiny new job? "

I don't think you can while women simply continue to do it for them (not blaming women for this as it's not a free choice unfortunately but a vicious cycle).

You need structural incentives from government and for corporations to care more about losing female talent... which apparently they do now but it sounds like it's mostly lip service.

You also need more women to question why men should get a free pass and stop accepting that short term financial consequences mean they should take the entire career hit (obviously not possible for everyone). Men should be challenged on this point more often. Child raising isn't just a mother's responsibility as it's necessary for the whole of society.

Having said that - it's very hard to keep your self esteem and desire for your job / ambition alive while everyone is telling you that your priorities will "naturally" change and your employer is already writing you off before you've even started maternity leave...

Jobs, which are only one aspect of work, are changing. We are at or almost at the tipping point.

There will no longer be such thing as a ‘career’ as it has been typically understood. There will no longer be set hours which are ‘working hours’ for jobs.

It is vital that planning takes account of this and that analysis of how people contribute to society and how people survive in society expands from a waged work model.

Women absolutely must not continue to be the victims of this situation as the evaporation of waged work as a means to provide the basics needed for survival and contribution continues.

I'd think there should be much more part time work for everyone. Why accept that x amount of people have to be out of work, while other people work themselves into the ground?

That'd probably involve some sort of universal income as well. And some building of more social housing.

There is no real need for bearing/caring to be structurally unsatisfying or isolating. But it is. This is one of the reasons men don’t want to do it.

As individuals our individual personality traits and differences in interest (men or women) may mean that we will always find caring/bearing unsatisfying but this is different to how stigmatised, isolating and abnormal the conditions of motherhood have become IMO.

Without that change, men will continue to shrug their shoulders and say 'well what can you do? I would have gone down to 4 days a week but you know you just can't in my kind of job'.

Fuck me yes. A sore spot in my relationship is when I was looking to move out of freelancing and back into a normal job, had got a few excellent offers, and had chosen one, and asked DP to use his big company's flexi-time policy to start at 10am so he could do drop offs.

Bear in mind also, that by then the traffic would have been better, so he'd also have had a shorter commute. And, that if he was tired, he'd not leave until 8:30 some days anyway, so he was definitely going to be late to work when it suited him

Not possible apparently, a flat 'no' - the flexi-time policy was just for show, and senior management wasn't expected to actually use it.

The only reason this wasn't a huge problem was that a month later I landed a huge freelance project that paid even better, and meant I could make my own hours (and I found an excellent childminder)