Don't get me wrong, I'm sex positive!

Fair enough

Refuse...I'm not convinced that is what I said or meant.

Spice girls - actually that is a little after my time and I don't really think of myself as a ladette. I was a late 80s early 90s feminist. At a time when female sexuality basically didn't seem to exist. I didn't go along with the whole girl power thing and actually men have used that term against me to accuse me of being a slut. I just didn't get why women were being sexual to meet the needs of the men around them.

if I had to say who my main influences were it would be the power dressers of the dynasty era. Women who didn't give a shit what men thought.

Millicent - you are right. I kind of asked the question in a tongue in cheek way. I don't think I should need to define my sexuality in any way. But unfortunately it seems to be the done thing at the moment.

Casualty of the era - that actually rings true. As you age you realise the things you did wrong as a young woman, but you recognise the effect they had on you. I don't think of myself as a man-pleaser, but I certainly see a few of my peers who are.

Why do you have to? In what circumstances would you need to?

Exactly! It is annoying when someone in their teens or twenties does it.... to still be banging on about how much you like taking cock in your 40s - you'll end up with no mates.

“I guess I will need to find another way of describing myself as a woman who likes sex... any ideas?”

Why do you have to? In what circumstances would you need to?

Hmmm - this is interesting and might be a generational thing. I'm in my mid 40s and am happy to describe myself as sex positive because I have always associated it with being unashamedly sexual to suit my own needs

It isn't generational. You are the age of the Spice Girls- 'Girl Power', 'ladettes' and all that.

Proper feminism was undergoing a huge backlash where women were being sold oppression re-branded as empowerment (bdsm, lapdancing, burlesque), Lads Mags were giving men tips on how to wear their girlfriend down until she agrees to anal penetration. Admittedly it is far worse now with ubiquitous genital waxing promoted on Sex & the City and porn is streamed like it is a utility in itself, but there are definitely women who are casualties of male sexual entitlement and the male gaze of your age.

I appreciate the logic of the woman who showed me this fuckery of sex positive politics:

Consent is sexy
Sexy is mandatory
Consent is mandatory

The UK is better about it, but in the USA only those liberal feminists willing to promote men's 'right' to pay for sex and use pornography get permitted to have paid careers as writers.

It's like 'pro-life'. Sounds good but isn't.

All this sex-positive, pro-porn, pro-prostitution stuff has lead to the orgasm gap. Larger in one night stands, interestingly. Because when PIV (or PI anywhere) sex is the 'aim' and women are the object, women enjoy it less.

Doesn't sound very sex-positive to me. Sounds very penis- and male orgasm-positive. Nice for them but not feminism. And the only way this can work is convincing women there's something wrong with us if we don't prioritise male orgasms. Because otherwise we'd not bother with PIV sex because it's not working for us.

Thanks for that link Offred. I ❤️ Lierre Keith.

Hmmm - this is interesting and might be a generational thing. I'm in my mid 40s and am happy to describe myself as sex positive because I have always associated it with being unashamedly sexual to suit my own needs. I define my sexuality in my own way.

I'm only just being made aware of the connotations it now seems to have. it seems a shame that yet another good way of describing yourself has been co-opted and is being used to redefine what feminism means for a new generation of young women - who think they must be sexually open in ways men say they should.

I guess I will need to find another way of describing myself as a woman who likes sex... any ideas?

It is very similar to "intersectional" OP

Intersectional = intersects with penis
Sex positive = penis positive

Where in reality, neither has anything to do with penis.

it has to challenge all incidences of women being viewed as a set of orifices to be used and abused for the pleasure of men because female sexuality cannot exist or be expressed in such a passive, obedient, subjugated state, entirely on men's terms, according to the male gaze.

Exactly this. Whereas it is often used to signal one's willingness to characterise sex without pleasure or to present oneself for the male gaze as feminist positions.

Yep.

Sex positive is the sort of feminism men like.

ie - it isn't actually feminism

Sex positive is the sort of feminism men like.

It's a re-branding of the age old misogynist prude/whore dichotomy isn't it?

Try to assert your sexual boundaries - you're a prude who deserves to be raped.

Try to man-please by pretending you have no boundaries - you're a whore who deserves anything we fancy in any orifice we fancy in any combination. In other words, first we'll fuck you in a way that you think you've consented to but will get very little pleasure from, then we'll anally rape you because, hey, you effectively told us you were up for it, and who misses a slice off a cut loaf?

"Sex-positive" is one of my most hated fun fem phrases (and I say that as someone who has had a long and enjoyable consensual sex life as an adult, and who has dabbled in writing erotic fiction).

I think Ophelias posts have it pretty spot on.

With the addition that in some people's opinions that I have come across, all 'sex negative' feminists only have missionary sex with the lights off, whilst wearing their cardigans.

It sets up a false dichotomy from the outset.

Indeed - a very useful one for the sex industry profiteers and lobbyists....

What does feminism critique? Male dominance of the female sex. Including controlling by sexual abuse and sexual exploitation.

What do all the pimps/etc who started to get a bit of social acceptance respect (eg Hefner) do, when they fear their reputations and profits might be damaged by feminist critique?

Step 1: Slander all critical feminists as 'anti-sex' for criticising sexism, sexual abuse and sexual exploitation.

Step 2: Co-opt feminism and call yourselves 'sex-positive feminists'.

Job done.

Isn't it a comment about moral judgement? So to be sex negative is to hold moral-based opinions on sex that are restrictive/ negative?

Or having boundaries. Or being called frigid/ prude/ lesbian.

I'm bullshitophobic. It brings me out in hives.

I'm sexism-negative

For 'sex-positivity' to have any worth as a feminist idea, then it has to challenge all incidences of women being viewed as a set of orifices to be used and abused for the pleasure of men because female sexuality cannot exist or be expressed in such a passive, obedient, subjugated state, entirely on men's terms, according to the male gaze.

Therefore you cannot be positive about female sexual expression and liberation and not be critical of prostitution, porn and sexual abuse at the same time.

Otherwise you are the proverbial person with a mind so open your brain falls out.