Danielle Muscato

My point is that Danielle Muscato isn't self ID'd: she is diagnosed dysphoric. I don't believe that she is female, but I will address her as such as long as it is diagnosed and required.

If someone is diagnosed as anorexic because, although they are very thin, they believe themself to be too fat, I will not go along with it and encourage that delusion.
Why is body dysphoria different from that?

Preferred pronouns equates to forcing women to lie, denying reality to placate men. I find it abusive, especially with regards to this horrible individual.

I don't give a shit what Muscato looks like and I think there is no possible justification - in a sane and stable society - for anything Muscato represents. The only value I can see is in exposing the utter shit show the so-called left has become in Western societies. Want to bring down Western global dominance? Social constructionism for the win.

I've just read through. There is no nasty comment.

Did someone post something nasty. I missed that.

I agree that being nasty about DMs appearance doesn't help, however Muscato is campaigning to be allowed in women's safe spaces such as toilets and change rooms while (until recently) appearing wholly as a man and claiming that any challenges to somone who looks like them (wholly masculine) is bigotry.
That's not about the safety of tw in toilets because they appear female, it's about men who look like any other male wanting the right to enter places where women are vulnerable without being challenged.
I do think that Muscato looking masculine is relevant to the conversation.

DM came from the skeptic crowd.

Yes, interesting that. It is a bit odd just how embracing the skeptic community is of gender identity ideology. Homeopathy? Rubbish! Astrology? Rubbish! Gendered souls? Sounds totally reasonable! But that’s also a community that has had some issues with women and feminism over the years, so maybe less surprising.

I have read a comment from DM before the Danielle days, in role as PR person for American Atheists, saying something like “I wanted to work for American Atheists because they were one of the first atheist orgs to take harassment seriously after Elevatorgate.” Nice sentiment. Although am unclear on how posting “suck my dick” on International Women’s Day goes with that, exactly.

Can we please stop focussing on what some transwomen (esp. Danielle) look like? I think we can all agree that looking 'pretty' should not be a prerequisite to womanhood? In fact isn't half the problem that some men claim to be transwomen because they like 'pretty things' and making themselves look 'pretty'.

One of the myths peddled by TRAs is that most trans identified males pass as women and that we've been sharing private spaces with them for years and just didn't know it. I think there are lots of people who think it doesn't matter much whether trans identified males are in women's spaces because they pass as women, are attracted to men and are so dysphoric that they would never want to talk about let alone use their penis. They say women are being hysterical to suggest that a bearded man might say he is a woman without taking any steps to transition.

It's important to talk about DM because DM was claiming to be a woman even when DM sported a full beard. DM took a place in a woman's refuge. DM told women to suck DM's dick.

We do all agree that being pretty is not a prerequisite to being a woman. Being female is though and being asked to confirm DH is a woman is the highest order of the Emperor's new clothes. Women are entitled to point this out.

I won't be using preferred pronouns unless paid to.

It would be DM for me too - especially now that I've got past my initial misunderstanding and realise people aren't talking about their Dear Mother

DM does not have sex dysphoria. Likes DM's dick enough to talk about it quite happily. @mumsnet of course it's possible to use preferred pronouns. Also possible to use the correct pronouns. You have the right to police one of them. You have chosen the anti-women option.

Still, you're hamstrung. No bloke gets a 'she' out of me.

I also refuse to use preferred pronouns.

Nope, absolutely not possible to refer to DM by DM's preferred pronouns. DM is a trolly git and abusive fucker (threatening oral rape on International Women's Day) and it'll be a cold day in hell before I use DM's preferred pronouns. We all have our lines in the sand, and this is one of mine.

It's not what DM looks like now I object to. It's what they say.
They do seem to be making a bit more of an effort with their appearance now, had a shave, bit of eyeliner, more girly glasses and a hat, fair enough.

But no, I don't think they are a woman and no I won't be "sucking his dick"

I honestly have a lot of sympathy with someone diagnosed with genuine gender dysphoria. It must be awful to believe you were born as the wrong sex.

My sympathy runs out when they say
"Some women have penises If you're bothered by this suck my dick" and sends out dick pics.

It is deeply offensive to all women that this person demands to be called "she" and says they are a woman. It is the biggest insult to women possible.

They don't deserve respect. Or money.

Danielle posted a few months ago that she can't take much hormones because of underlying health conditions. SHe said that she just takes a token amount to keep the terfs quiet...

Wow, did DM really say that? So analysing the above, DM says they cannot take hormones due to a medical condition, but takes a 'token amount' to shut up the terfs? Frankly, the last part sounds like a lie. But I gather if DM does, against medical advice, it will somehow get twisted about that WE caused DM harm!

The 'attacks' on DM's appearance is largely because DM's only 'transition' was to change name. And call themselves a woman. It's all DM's say-so, it is quite obvious DM still goes out of the house dressed as they always were.

Frankly, the situation is so ludicrous. DM came from the skeptic crowd. I have been waiting for DM to pull the ultimate 'gotcha' on the TRAs, but that has not happened yet.

It's not about not looking feminine, I totally agree, dreadful argument! even when you look like Paris Lees you havent changed sex. Being diagnosed dysphoric is little more than a doctor affirming your self id. Dysphoria doesn't change your sex. I'll never call a man 'she'.

Muscato is a bullshitter.

My impression is that Muscato is one of those TRAs who think 'gender' is literally all in the mind. The body is absolutely irrelevant. That makes him different from old-style transsexuals, the ones dismissed as truscum. It's also dangerous and regressive thinking because it links being male or female entirely with attitudes and behavioural stereotypes. It's reinforcing gender.

Pratchet
My point is that Danielle Muscato isn't self ID'd: she is diagnosed dysphoric. I don't believe that she is female, but I will address her as such as long as it is diagnosed and required. I might be very uncomfortable about where all this is headed, but the personal attacks on her appearance are unacceptable: make us look like bigots and actually dilute the force of our concerns/arguments against self-ID. Her comments regarding violence etc are fair game. I'm certainly no fan. But 'doesn't look feminine enough' is a terrible basis for any feminist argument.

Oh no I don't care what he wears, he can knock himself out with orange shoes and stubble. I care that he thinks saying some words turns him into a woman.

DM's appearance is not very feminine, but that doesn't bother me. As far as I'm concerned, anybody can dress how they like. Gender stereotypes are toxic, and we'd all be better off without them. What does bother me is that DM has decided that he is female and always was, and is prepared to be verbally aggressive to anyone who doesn't accept this.

Others (of both sexes) are making similar declarations and lots of people including HCPs, teachers and lawmakers are accepting this self-ID and changing the law and all sorts of other things accordingly. The problems this causes are being swept under the carpet and those of us who can see the potential difficulties are being labelled as bigots for raising them, and even threatened with legal action for stating the obvious (e.g. ThePosieParker).

With any other fixed delusion psychiatric treatment would be suggested. If DM had an eating disorder or was hearing voices from God or had decided his right leg was not really his, there would be no question that he was unwell. But because he is stating that he is really a she he gets treated as entirely rational.

I don't think this is doing him any favours.

I don’t think Danielle gives a damn about what ‘the TERFs’ think or say or do. I also think Danielle knows full well that a lot of those well-behaved liberal feminists aren’t comfortable with the “suck my dick” or “tell me your euphemisms for masturbation please, I’m asexual but I just really like language!” or taking a place in a women’s refuge or all of that stuff either, and rather enjoys seeing them squirm about it and then loudly cheer anyway.

What? A bloke who tells women to suck his dick if they don't think he's a woman? All I've done is point out that his 'transition' consisted of .. nothing. We are highlighting the this is the end game of self id. Abstracts don't work: DM put himself out there as an example. Fine, he can be the example. There he is. That is self ID. Don't like it? Don't shoot the messenger. Complain about self ID.