The Guardian shills for prostitution

@Italiangreyhound
Thanks for those links

What, again?

I reached Peak Guardian with the article about Cologne. You'd think there would be no way to top that, but they do seem to be determined to keep trying.

@RefuseToDenounceBiology "Tactical misuse of words. Feminists commit violence my arse."

Yes, I agree. Talking about violence constantly is an excuse to use violence against women.

I couldn't read much of that article, it's just so shit. It's an advert for prostitution. Why are the media adverting about it!

For any lurkers new to this topic...

In the Nordic model I believe that the women (or anyone) who are in prostitution have added protections, not fewer. It's still not a good chocie to have sex for money (IMHO) but at least under the Nordic model the prostitutes not the johns are (to some extent) 'protected'.

nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

The comparison with anti smoking laws is very interesting.

nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-regulation-makes-prostitution-safe/

nordicmodelnow.org/facts-about-prostitution/fact-prostitution-is-inherently-violent/ Trigger warning, some of it is a bit disturbing (to me, but then I am very sensitive).

Much more interesting reading than that article, IMHO.

The next slur after TERF is SWERF. Which is Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist. Basically advocating the Nordic Model is whore-phobic. Sophie Walker from the Women's Equality Party took a lot of flack for this approach recently.

No, I'm sorry Quentin - I should have expressed myself properly in the first place.

I didn't realise there was a pro-prostitution lobby here; I've probably been too obsessed by the trans threads and missed other stuff. I have friends who've worked in prostitution and I want to hear what they say, but I find it a very difficult subject.

Sorry kittens
I was being a bit defensive due to too much arguing with the pro-prostitution lobby on here

I don't have a problem with the idea of selling/buying sex

I probably expressed that badly. I meant that I can imagine a world where sex could be exchanged for money, but it isn't the world we live in. It would have to be a world free of male violence and free of the shaming of women who have multiple sexual partners. I actually agree with what others said in response to that remark. But maybe there's not much point in thinking about imaginary worlds?

I thought the Nordic model would be a good solution, but apparently that hasn't worked out as well as people expected - sex workers' rights groups say it's made them less safe and more vulnerable to everything from rape to deportation.

There have been no murders of women in prostitution by punters or pimps since it was introduced. The "sex workers' rights groups" are shills for pimps. How, logically, would it make women in prostitution more vulnerable to rape or deportation? It makes no sense.

I don't have a problem with the idea of selling/buying sex

I agree with Lass on this.

I don't have a problem with the idea of selling/buying sex

I do. I don't understand how any one can look at a man who is a punter and not think they are despicable.

Drunk drivers or illegal puppy farmers or men who go to dog fights or badger baiting- all scum , all lacking in empathy and humanity- all poisonous to decent society.

And this does need men to speak out. I was proud of my son when, looking for somewhere to have a drink in his university town, he commented on one place which I initially thought looked ok from the outset that it was for losers paying to gawp at women who wouldn't otherwise touch them with a bargepole. No prompting from me.

I don't have a problem with the idea of selling/buying sex
I do. I don't know how we can have an equal society when men feel so entitled to orgasm they are happy to use money to waive consent. Or how they get off with a woman who wouldn't touch them with a bargepole under normal circumstances.

It is just grim. Have a walk instead ffs.

I was about to post the Bindel article too - I can't believe sex working has been described as skilled employment!
Also, I was told by a school principal last week of the game where young boys make their own prostitute, then have sex with her then kill her - and men want us to think this is a "career choice" for women.
I am so so angry that my abhorrence of sex work on feminist principles is seen as regressive and that porn and prostitution and violence against women is seen as progressive.
And DJLippy, totally with you in that I thought we would all be equal by now - we all forgot about the millennia of misogyny and thought it would all go away - we were so wrong.

Where are all the class action lawsuits against the Oxford, Harvard, Cambridge, Collins - basically ALL the dictionaries for their awful trans-exclusionary definition of woman = adult human female

"feminists are committing great violence against us". Really don't get how having an opinion equates to violence

I was thinking about this very thing this morning, because it is, lets face it, an odd use of the word violence... and then the mists cleared! It is tactical.

Hate speech and hate crime are all about violence and harm aren't they? 'Incitement' to 'violence' and actual 'violence' and 'harm'.

Something feminists annoyingly never seem to slip up on, is the violence thing, because we know that systemic violence is used to oppress us and we want to name it, not replicate it.

So what laws can those who want to silence and restrict women turn to, if women commit neither incitement to, or actual violence?

Er. None.

So what do you do. You make up some ludicrous accusation that 'misgendering' or whatever will actively force people to commit suicide in droves, even though this is bullshit.

Then say 'not avoiding saying or doing things that makes certain people claim they will commit suicide if it is said or done, is actually 'incitement'.

Because suicide is a violent act, they believe you can call persisting in anything which makes people threaten suicide- 'incitement to violence', 'hate' or 'hate speech', in a highly arse about face, deeply manipulative and controlling, sociopathic reasoning.

Tactical misuse of words. Feminists commit violence my arse.

QUOTE
"Often, if a sex worker gets raped or robbed, they have no recourse to legal action, as they won’t be taken seriously"

Yes because women are always taken seriously when they say they've been raped. Especially after they've just accepted money for sex...

I have eyes.

I can see porn, I have seen it with my eyes.

This gaslighting that porn is actually lovely and all about affirming women and promotes consentual sex and mutual pleasure is ridiculous.

I see you.

Because of course all johns just want to a girl to play computer games with then fuck.
I mean girls who play computer games are so rare and are put on such a big pedestal by male gamers that men are queueing up to pay to be part of it.
Men are always wanting to play with women and not just have women watch them play, you can tell by the way they actively encourage women gamers and game makers and in no way threaten to rape them or harass them.

I mean that’s definitely what sex work is like, definitely definitely.

How fucking stupid do they think we are.
Actually don’t answer that.

Porn is propaganda against women. What other minority group would be treated like this as 'entertainment.' No wonder men hate women so much. It's NEVER been this bad, has it? I'm only 35 but when I was young I thought equality was just around the corner. Now I wonder how long it will be until they take our vote back off us.

This is what freaks me out about the legalisation debate. Guys watch all this awful porn where the just treat women like a series of holes to be violently rammed. When they get a prostitute, do you think they will respect her autonomy? Even though you buy sex you can't treat the women however you like.

There already reports of young women who are having very painful sex they don't want because they think this is normal. Boys are also being groomed by the porn - thinking that girls like it when you pull their hair and finish in their face. What do you think they'd behave like if they bought the woman?

"On the Wright Stuff this morn one topic for discussion was 'porn in schools'. Its a normalisation of porn, prositution and linking them with children. Teenagers at first..."

I just came downstairs and DH had this on.

The presenter and the dr christain bloke who has form for misogyny were speaking over the 2 women panellists and calling them prudes.

They said that it was not illegal to show porn to children (?) I am sure it is a grooming crime.

They were entirely coming from male perspective, neither considering or caring how this would feel to the girls, most mainstream porn in misigynistic and racist, they are from male gaze and a male gaze that wants to hurt, humiliate women at that. They are generally not about sex they are about asserting dominance through sexual abuse.

So the idea is to sit the kids down in the classroom and the boys and girls get to watch sexual dominance displays on film of males over females. Yes that sound fucking AWESOME.

The two men were also nodding away at the idea that it would be goo to address boys feelings of inadequacy re penis size. What about the girls turning up at a&e with anal damage? Nor a mention, don't matter. What is important is to focus on boys dicks and reassure them that their penises are awesome. Like, all of history always.

Fucking pair of arseholes.

I have turned into a person with zero sense of humour around this topic.

On the Wright Stuff this morn one topic for discussion was 'porn in schools'. Its a normalisation of porn, prositution and linking them with children. Teenagers at first...

What a disturbing stance

I doubt we shall ever stop the sale of sex but future generations of men can be raised in not believing they have to have sex and they have the right to buy sex

One mentioned Kings Cross in Sydney it was there it first hit home how demeaning the work is (have since worked with ex sex workers in therapy mostly thought
it was a quick way to earn good money).
Sitting in a cafe people watching we saw a few young women going off with men and returning about 20 minutes later. One young women walked off with a man then they approached an older man he could hardly walk he must have been 80 and off she went with him. I guess it doesn’t matter who your customer is but it certainly isn’t the story they tell when glamorizing the work

THIS article very interesting. What do you think 'youth sex work is?' Child rape? That's woke isn't it...
www.christianpost.com/news/is-there-a-secret-plan-legalize-sex-trafficking-minors-feminist-activist-tells-all-222211/page1.html

What's alarming to me is that for many feminists at university 'sex-worker inclusive feminism' is the latest craze. There seems to be a concerted push to de-stigmatise prostitution. IMO this isn't about making it a respectable, safe profession but removing the stigma for the men who buy sex. Look how many strip clubs have sprung up since austerity. They were never so prominent before - now it's all out in the open. I'm not a prude (far from it) but I don't think any woman can walk past one without feeling revulsion and sadness.

If it becomes a normal thing you do at the end of a lads night out (naughty boys ;) then obviously demand will rise. With disaster that is waiting - Universal Credit, plus the two child minimum for child benefit - it's a perfect storm forcing women into sex work. If you consider how austerity has also decimated social services and removed many child safeguards - you could almost be forgiven for thinking somebody was taking advantage to recruit young teenage girls into the profession. (and my 'recruit' I mean groom.)

Is there a way to protect the women in prostitution without giving more power to the pimps and brothel owners via a veneer of respectability?

Just for a little bit of balance - there is a Julie Bindel article on the situation in NZ and how it really isn't working and shouldn't be a standard we aspire to.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/30/new-zealand-sex-work-prostitution-migrants-julie-bindel

I agree that the guardian is losing the plot - but this seems to be offering a different viewpoint on the legalisation argument.

I am in two minds about this. In principle I don't disagree with women choosing to do with whatever they want with their bodies and I'm sex positive. However the failure to tackle pimping, trafficking and violence should be the first priority. if those issues could be dealt with more effectively, women will be more able to make the choices they want.

A zero tolerance policy to sexual violence of all kinds including that happening within the sex industry would be a good start.