MNHQ Deletion Policy

Attempt to prove unproven belief is true, but asserting that unproven belief is true.

I didn't attempt to prove something was true, I said it's nonsense to say it can't be true just because something for which there is much less evidence almost certainly isn't!

Hi MipMipMip!

The very word ‘pronouns’ make me cringe these days (just because of the type of people insisting on how important they are)

I’ve actually recently asked friends/family who were using ‘she’ to use ‘he’ instead as a favour to me. I felt like a bit of a wanker asking people to change how they refer to me (I have never done that before) but in the wider context of women feeling like they have to be polite, and because polite now essentially means ‘lie or I’ll punch you’ to some, I’m actually much more comfortable being referred to by my biological sex.

My DP has always been bemused by it when friends referred to me as she anyway. He’s gay, and though he fell in love with me as a person, obviously he wouldn’t have been attracted to me if he didn’t consider me to be a man (sans genitalia or not)

But everything I did is true

I'm sorry for being rude, I was impatient

Briefly : incoherent because you begged the question.

Predicated on unproven belief that gender identity is real.

Attempt to prove unproven belief is true, but asserting that unproven belief is true.

The bit about consensus making something true is just silly.

There have always been people culturally appropriating and trying to pass as another 'race' - eg 'white' people claiming to be Native Americans.

Not very long ago there weren't many self declared transpeople either.
Maybe more will now emerge.
Or perhaps not, maybe anyone who feels like identifying as black will realise how colonial and offensive it is to try to appropriate someone's else's culture and experiences.

There's no evidence for changing sex either Rat. Noone is denying that Trans people 'feel' that they are the opposite sex. But feelings don't make facts for this any more that it would if they thought they were a unicorn or white to black.

Noone is saying that gender dysphoria isn't real. It clearly is and it a serious condition

Okay Pratchet. Obviously I think I have a point, so if you'd like me to clarify I'll try? Or is what you're getting at that you see the point I'm trying to make but you think it's nonsense for reasons you don't feel the need to go into?

Sorry, don't think I'm being a pain, I'm really not sure if you're expecting my interaction on this or simply wanted to pass comment. I don't mind!

compare something with which

Something for which, not "with".

No Barracker, that isn't my argument.

My argument is that you can't usefully compare something with which there is a great deal of very real evidence with something for which there is none.

You can't say that something (for which there is looooaaaads of evidence) probably doesn't exist simply because something that looks similar - for which there is no evidence - definitely doesn't exist.

It's silly.

You can see that.

Actually I just felt it was poorly predicated, ultimately resulting in incoherence?

rat Your argument is "if lots of people believe in a thing it must be true"???

Really?

It wasn't very concise or clear, I'll grant you.

Nonsense Rat. Word salad.

To be fair Lang, it wasn't a troll who started that thread. It was a regular. And it was a 'discussion thread, clearly open for comments on boths sides.

Fair enough. I'm not shutting up either!

@MrPan I just dropped in to comment on the Rachel Dolezal thing (haven't read the whole thread - don't shoot me!).

To me the comparison is a false analogy, because whilst theoretically the two situations appear similar, the reality is that race and sex/gender are not sufficiently analogous in this situation.

What I mean by that is that we have very much evidence to suggest that they are too different to be compared. So for example there are hundreds of thousands of people worldwide and throughout recorded history who exhibit an "innate" sense of their own gender that does not match up to their bodily sex. That is not the case for race. As far as I'm aware there is one person that we know of... Perhaps if there were many thousands throughout human history I might see the point in comparing them!

So to me it's like someone saying to me "if you can be transgender, why can't you be transracial?", which seems a lot like saying "if you're telling me horses exist, and you're telling me rhinos exist, why not unicorns?" The idea of unicorns existing is far-fetched, not least because we have no blooming evidence that they do, but I can give you plenty of evidence that horses do. So how can I be obliged to solve the issues surrounding the mythical unicorn when I simply want to talk about the very real horse?

So yeah, why isn't it rude to "mis-race" Rachel Dolezal but it may be rude to misgender a transperson? Er, because transgenderism is a recognised state of being for human with plenty of evidence to back up its very real existence, but transracialism - yeah - that's not.

Hope this helps :)

TRAs now control the narrative because all they show in a screen grab is the first two posts.

Maybe in a case like that, @MNHQ could do something along the lines of deleting specific posts, leaving the refutations and then close the thread (with an explanatory post) to further posts rather than deleting the whole thing?

Yes because the creep has happened and a mile has been taken where an inch was given. What was once a polite welcoming courtesy is an obligation and moving towards being law and punishable not to do.

I do find it costly to be pressured into playing along with a charade I don't agree with in order to be nice.

Some other people are similar to me. My right to name reality is important to me. So is the integrity of my commitment to women as a group which excludes males.

It disturbs me and induces anxiety when I am forced to do something I fundamentally disagree with because it is the done thing. I feel oppressed and not free in such a situation and I hope that people with dysphoria have enough respect for others that they don't force the issue in a way they have no right whatsoever to do. It is aggressive, damaging and imposing their difficulties on others.

Maybe other people have things they have to deal with too. Its not all about dysphoric people.

Breitbart has got wind of the fact that a thread about their freedom rally was started and deleted.

To be fair Lang, it wasn't a troll who started that thread. It was a regular. And it was a 'discussion thread, clearly open for comments on boths sides.

The bottom line is that this is either we accept that this going to happen OR we are going to have to police ourselves to the extent that no post, at any time, presented out of context could be miscontrued as extreme behaviour.

But, that's not going to happen because we are going to continue to debate the issues here.

So fuck them. Let them tell their lies because we are not shutting up

Thank you to everyone who has been nice and sent flowers. At the same time it makes me feel a little uncomfortable at the same time as I don't want to be a 'victim' in all this too.

I was angry last night as its made out that there is only one group who suffers in all this.

Its simply not true. There are numerous groups being thrown under the bus by people who don't get it. You can not protect people from reality however well meaning you are. You can just try and help them find ways to cope within the world and get people to realise how they might not find life easy. Its not achieved by expecting the world to change for you by force and at the expense of other groups who are not necessarily advantaged either.

It is the force thats problematic not the identity.

I am just sick of this narrative of 'winning' and 'losing' and this means anything is justifiable which under any other circumstances we'd be the first in the queue to criticise.

Its all the bullshit that gets to me.

It is not 'non costly' to use preferred pronouns. It's a form of coercion and the thin end of the wedge.

YYY.

Well quite.....RD....maybe I need to think a bit harder and further.

The trans people I know are now in their 50s and a very far distance from the TRAs.