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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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MNHQ Deletion Policy

935 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 17:03

Earlier today the Trans Park Run thread was deleted in its entirety because SOME posts alleging cheating were deemed to be 'not in the spirit' of MN.

We have a thread about that running.

I have just been deleted on the Heather Peto thread for posting this:

"Bless..."

A post intended to be mildly dismissive.

That was deleted for breaking talk guidelines.

Give me a fucking break MNHQ.

"Bless..." gets a deletion!??!?!

TRA really have got you on a short chain, haven't they?

OP posts:
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AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 10:25

I share far more common characteristics with my DH than I do with any prominent trans activist that I can think of. He's still a man and I'm still a woman.

KittyKlaws · 02/05/2018 10:21

But at the absolute root of my fundamental objection to the ideology, is that I want to be fully recognised. I am female, adult - a woman. I want to be recognised as distinct from males, all males. I'm as different from transwomen as I am from any other male.
I'm not a little bit more like these males than those males because we both use the word woman to name ourselves. I don't want to share a category with transwomen that isn't simply 'people'. It isn't true that I have similarities with transwomen that I don't also have with all other men too.

Well said Barracker to me this is the fundamental issue I have with the entire ideology. I see that this position is unassailable for me and seems to be something trans ideology depends on for the most part and therefore, we will always be at an impasse.

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 10:19

Going back to the title of this thread - MNHQ Deletion Policy. I would like to say that there is considerable fuss on Twitter currently - trying to get a thread discussing paedophilia removed. #TransAge, "Age fluid" and the tactics of the PIE to normalise and legalise paedophilia.

I would like to reiterate what I have just said on that thread. MNHQ - if women on mumsnet cannot talk about this serious child protection issue - then what are you for?

LangCleg · 02/05/2018 10:12

How to make that compatible with pleasing everybody though is anybody's guess.

Rights conflict. Not everybody can have everything they want.

I don't particularly want to throw fully-transitioned transsexuals under the bus, not least because this group includes friends of mine, but I have red lines. And if what you call fully transitioned people want to avoid my bus, Cady, they are going to have to separate themselves from the extreme transactivists, organise, and lobby. I didn't include them under the trans umbrella and getting them out from under it is not my responsibility. I am here to advocate for the interests of women and children.

xxmarksthespot · 02/05/2018 09:12

I'm assuming mumsnet Hq / IWillReportAllTransphobicPosts / THE ACTUAL POLICE will be at my door shortly to confiscate my dictionary Pratchet.

Perhaps those nice chaps from West Yorks Police could do a tour of the country, gather all our dictionaries together and burn them all.

LaSqrrl · 02/05/2018 00:58

Barracker: And any efforts to take the word which distinguishes me and to 'adapt' it with prefixes to blur boundaries between my sex, and the identity of anyone male, fundamentally takes away my right to name myself in a way that cannot be claimed by males.
There is only one word for adult human females to name ourselves, and all the rights we have fought for were granted to us as a recognised group of females under that name. Woman is synonymous with female. We need that word to talk about our sex. And yet, when male people claim it for themselves they force a false shared identity with me that doesn't exist, and that denies me the right to that clear refutation: Woman means female, and it isn't something you can transition to.

Well said.

And also agree with what Kitten said above
Having successfully erased the meaning of the words man and woman they now move on to the words male and female.

And Rufus: Gender instead of sex

Yes, and once all of those words to describe ourselves have gone, how do we fight for women's rights? There will be no such thing. No such category of humans that have been subjugated. Game over for us. And that is why we continue to resist the takeover.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 00:40

Maybe realize that a. sometimes you can't please everyone and b. you will never, ever please someone with the kind of personality most prominent TRAs have. Which is why many women have stopped trying.

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 00:28

BarrackerBarmer - I completely agree with what you said there,really well put.
Women's spaces absolutely should be protected.
Fully transitioning male to female or female to male though are protected by law and so they should be.
How to make that compatible with pleasing everybody though is anybody's guess.
The .word woman needs to stay too - I'm not a ciswoman, I'm a woman thanks muchly.
Always hated on learning what it meant, but after this thread and the deleted one made me think it's a word to make it easier to explain stuff and make things clear and that shouldn't be the way. Cis shouldn't be needed. I don't want to be shunted to 'cis.
Christ,my arse will get splintered sitting on the goddamn fence at this rate lol Grin

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 00:07

Thank you for putting that so well, Barrack. I'm exhausted.

BarrackerBarmer · 02/05/2018 00:03

Cady - Can I ask you how it is possible to be a transwoman and NOT impinge upon women's rights in some way? Even in a minor way?

For example, I think Miranda Yardley manages this - by not using women's spaces, by not claiming the word woman, by not enforcing his inclusion in women's data, and by arguing that he isn't a woman at all. In fact he acknowledges he is male and argues for the rights of women to be recognised as a biological class - in the knowledge that this excludes him.

But on some level, other transwomen, even 'gender critical' transwomen, all seem to push women's boundaries at least a little in the course of 'living their lives peacefully'. Using changing rooms, or requiring female pronouns, changing sex markers on documents, claiming that woman means something other than sex, at least for them personally.

I respect and listen to several transwomen, and some I consider brave and admire their integrity whilst still disagreeing, but there do seem to be blind spots in their reasoning where their identity as women treads on the toes of actual females is concerned.

And Miranda does seem to be exceptional in this regard.

It doesn't mean I don't respect transwomen. But I do still think this needs to be discussed.

I agree with all the concerns women have about safety and I share them, because they are valid.

But at the absolute root of my fundamental objection to the ideology, is that I want to be fully recognised. I am female, adult - a woman. I want to be recognised as distinct from males, all males. I'm as different from transwomen as I am from any other male.
I'm not a little bit more like these males than those males because we both use the word woman to name ourselves. I don't want to share a category with transwomen that isn't simply 'people'. It isn't true that I have similarities with transwomen that I don't also have with all other men too. Men and women are all people. That is our commonality. But there is no "men in this category/women & transwomen in this one". I object to this false duality that arises by some males declaring: females are women, we are transwomen, males are different from us. It lumps me into a category with some males, the ones who use 'woman' in any way, and distinguishes me - apparently - from other males, and my protests that this is against my wishes and against reality go unheard.

And any efforts to take the word which distinguishes me and to 'adapt' it with prefixes to blur boundaries between my sex, and the identity of anyone male, fundamentally takes away my right to name myself in a way that cannot be claimed by males.
There is only one word for adult human females to name ourselves, and all the rights we have fought for were granted to us as a recognised group of females under that name. Woman is synonymous with female. We need that word to talk about our sex. And yet, when male people claim it for themselves they force a false shared identity with me that doesn't exist, and that denies me the right to that clear refutation: Woman means female, and it isn't something you can transition to.

My right to say, I am sorry, I don't hate you, but I am not like you despite what you believe, this is who I am, this is what matters to me: recognise me, and respect my name as one that exists to describe me and my sex - please use another name for yourselves.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 23:58

Women are human too, we deserve equal rights, and we deserve the spaces we have carved out for ourselves. We didn't make those spaces to be mean, we did it because we are disproportionately at risk of male violence and sexual harassment.

Completely, totally with you on that. No way should women's rights be eroded. I'm one myself.Against self ID.
There needs to be a happy medium though, and I have no answer to the best way to solve it.
As fully transitioning peeps need protecting too. Not denying and saying "but no,you're not one of us and never will be" which some have said.
So what do you do? Suppose that's the billion dollar question otherwise there wouldn't be all this arguing.

AngryAttackKittens · 01/05/2018 23:55

Woman says - I'm being gaslighted, please stop.

Response is - But don't you think you should be nicer to/about the person gaslighting you? And also, not everyone gaslights. Can we talk about the people who don't gaslight instead?

Person who doesn't gaslight says - Can you not do this in my name please?

Response is - (crickets) Now anyway, about the rudeness with which you're discussing your feelings about gaslighting...

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 23:52

It's the constant gaslighting. I've been victim to male sexual violence - both from strangers and from a trusted boyfriend, sadly. You can't tell me that a fear of sexual violence by men is an 'irrational fear' - or like being scared of escalators.

You also can't tell me that I should willingly accept any male that says they identify as female into women's spaces. That there's no risk. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Gender neutral toilets can get to fuck. I don't even like the toilets in Covent Garden Belgos.

AngryAttackKittens · 01/05/2018 23:43

It's the endless picking apart of language with the implication that if objections aren't worked just right then we need to stop talking about the actual issue and focus on the wording instead that I find wearying. I tend to eventually just stop engaging people with people like that, because why bother?

ErrolTheDragon · 01/05/2018 23:43
  • Fully transitioned women have every right to go about their lives peacefully if they so wish though,and in fact have done for years/decades unobtrusively. Why should they get swept into all this as well when they've done nothing wrong?*

They shouldn't. It wasn't GC feminists who invented the slur 'truscum', you know.

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 23:36

Cady - we're just sticking up for women's rights. I'm getting weary now. It's so tedious. Women are human too, we deserve equal rights, and we deserve the spaces we have carved out for ourselves. We didn't make those spaces to be mean, we did it because we are disproportionately at risk of male violence and sexual harassment. Sometimes I think the posters that belittle this very simple fact, and want to make everything gender neutral, have never been to school - with the boys trying to peak at the girls changing. Sometimes I think they never walked down a street, and been catcalled by a load of men, or made to feel uncomfortable, or worse.

Tru wrote a lovely post, and lots of us responded to it....Tru stands up for women's rights too.

AngryAttackKittens · 01/05/2018 23:23

I think at some point you may just have to accept that other commenters aren't always going to use the tone that you'd like them to, Cady. Unless MNHQ come back with a new comment policy so draconian that there's almost nobody left commenting at all.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 23:17

Did you miss the conversation the rest of the regulars had with Truscum earlier? Who is another regular, and trans, and who the rest of us are fond of.

No, I saw that. I think truscum's a great poster too and I like hearing from.
Fully transitioned women have every right to go about their lives peacefully if they so wish though,and in fact have done for years/decades unobtrusively.
Why should they get swept into all this as well when they've done nothing wrong?

AngryAttackKittens · 01/05/2018 22:32

Did you miss the conversation the rest of the regulars had with Truscum earlier? Who is another regular, and trans, and who the rest of us are fond of.

It's the invisibility cloak for trans people who're not raging narcissists, works every damn time. It's like people arguing about what mean meanies gender critical women are literally can't see any trans person who's a reasonable human being.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 22:27

You're lumping in everyone with that mwahaha post though, including transwomen and men just wishing to go about their lives, peacefully.
Not just the frankly bonkers extremists.
There's bonkers extremists on both sides of the argument.
It's sad all are getting swept under one big metaphorical umbrella because of the actions of an extreme minority.

BarrackerBarmer · 01/05/2018 22:22

The goal is to make it punishable for biological females to distinguish themselves from men with purported ladybrains. And for mention of, or categorisation of biological sex to be verboten.

At which point I will identify as a transwoman, along with my gender critical friends, and our identities will be sacrosanct, and no-one will be able to challenge us because our sex will be unmentionable. So we will be transwomen too, and our voices will outnumber the voices of the transwomen-with-penises by about 50 to 1.

Careful what you wish for, boys.

mwahahahaha

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 22:19

I'll admit that was my first thought angry

Thats seems to be how this stuff starts

Gender instead of sex etc

AngryAttackKittens · 01/05/2018 22:15

Having successfully erased the meaning of the words man and woman they now move on to the words male and female. The goal is to make the truth quite literally unspeakable.

LyingLowForABit · 01/05/2018 22:09

So what's occurring with old Matthew Wright?

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 21:56

So transwomen and transmen...terms may be a bone of contention i know

TV guide is talking about the new gender something or other programme and its referring to transfemales and transmales

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