MNHQ Deletion Policy

That is what transphobic means though. Refusing to accept fully transitioned, full surgery, properly living as a woman for years as female and denying they exist and carry on saying they're male/a bloke.

I'm not denying they exist. They aren't female. It's a fact. I've said this many times and the posts still stand. You don't understand this issue. No one cares about surgery. That's not how it works.

That is what transphobic means though.

Who has decided that? Because it certainly isn't the law.

@KateMumsnet - look how your last comment has buoyed the confidence of an authoritarian - (is that what we want?):

If you can't see that,you're going to keep on getting deleted.

I did write back explaining legal ramifications, and was told it was being passed higher but I haven’t heard back. I should chase it up.

Definitely do. They can't make up their own Equality criteria as they go along. There are legal obligations.

MNHQ - these transactivists on twitter, who are targeting your advertisers, and trying to shut this board down and silence us - they are not going to accept polite debate on the subject. Not any. None.

As Justine said on lbc, just the discussion itself is seen as transphobic. #NoDebate - remember. You are being accused of transphobia for allowing the discussion, not the content of the discussion. I think you should be aware of this - it's been stated explicitly on Twitter.

You should not capitulate and add to the silencing of women on this subject. You are a women's forum predominantly. Outsiders coming in and reporting all our posts, some even with goady NNs announcing their intentions - are they going to stay and join in all the threads after you've shut us down? No, they are not.

Look me up - I've been here years, I've posted thousands of posts. I spend far too much time here. Look to your actual users here - the ones who want to discuss this. Stop "accidentally" allowing posts that say "bless" be deleted. Stop allowing your users to be silenced.

Are classed as women though.)Not by a large number of people. You do - that's up to you.

That is what transphobic means though. Refusing to accept fully transitioned, full surgery, properly living as a woman for years as female and denying they exist and carry on saying they're male/a bloke.
If you can't see that,you're going to keep on getting deleted.

Cady that's what I mean - if they are setting firm rules it will be one or the other. And neither will work on all occasions.

Wishing good luck was genuine: whatever they do will be wrong.

I teach med and biomed students. I do not teach that transwomen are female. I don't know any lecturers who do.

Ereshkigal, I know — I’m pretty well up on the equalities act. Gender reassignment is there along with race, religion and sexual orientation, but they’ve lost sex, pregnancy and maternity, and marital or civil partnership status. There are some other ones added as well — HIV status, sex worker status, class background.

I queried it (politely) because I didn’t want to use that wording for a society constitution, and was told “it’s been written in consultation with students over many years and isn’t designed to copy (or something like that, I can’t quite remember the wording) the equalities act”. I actually suspect what happened is that gender was used as a ‘polite’ synonym for sex, and it was never changed. Now though, they mean such different things.

I did write back explaining legal ramifications, and was told it was being passed higher but I haven’t heard back. I should chase it up.

Are we no longer allowed to ridicule or offend?

Are classed as women though.)

Not by a large number of people. You do - that's up to you.

attack individuals - won't be allowed to stand @MNHQ

Does this include individuals who aren't actually on the thread?
The Prime Minister?
Donald Trump?
How about dead people - do we have to be nice about them?
Stalin?
How about people who opt to be public figures in public roles but a bit lower down the food chain?
Are individuals above criticism?
What if they are doing things that can harm us, harm democracy, harm free speech?
Are we allowed to mention it?

I'd live to know if they consider "he" to be engendering hate speech or stating fact.

I'd think that would go on context, surely?
Fully transitioned male to female, surgery and everything. Spent years living as a woman,
Constantly referring to as "he" - rude. Intolerant. (Not saying they're biological,as obviously not. Are classed as women though.)

Make your mind up on the day of the week - ie female Mon - Thurs, the other days you're male - come ON, how the hell is someone supposed to know whether you're he/she.they/whatever pronoun?! Ridiculous.

Context.

@KateMumsnet

If you're going to add one or two guidelines, can I earnestly suggest you do a quick bit of research about the legal position. So it's at your fingertips.

FairPlay for Women have a 'non lawyers' guide to the law. Which should help.

Otherwise this see-sawing will run and run. The extra line has to be the law. You already have rules for goadiness, personal attacks, etc.

But people are now fully wised up and TRAs or TRA allies will push you to the absolute limit. Your only recourse is a flat 'it's perfectly legal'. Otherwise they will continue to target you - over what we say.

You applying boundaries that are unassailable is your strongest approach. You being able to put your hands up and claim you can do no more because it's the law, will be a line that's irrefutable.

Take emotion out. Take opinion out.

?

At mine the word gender has replaced sex in all the equality/anti discrimination documents,

The Equality Act characteristics are sex and gender reassignment, not "gender".

We'll have a think about this over the next few days and come back to you.

Please make sure the rules work across MN and don't just give the antifeminists, misogynists and authoritarians license and ammunition to pick on feminists.

If you allow it in AIBU and Chat, let it on here.

We're offering the space to debate this issue - that means that alternative voices must be able to make themselves heard

That's why I like it on here. All views can be heard and discussed. You'd be hard pressed to find it elsewhere online.
There's a way of doing it without sneering at anyone with a differing viewpoint thought.
The fact that MN have bolded the word debate - I think that's telling. They want people to debate. Have all viewpoints. Without making anyone feel shut down/belittled for holding different views.
Debate means just that.Being open to hearing others.

Love*

I'd live to know if they consider "he" to be engendering hate speech or stating fact.

Good luck.

Universities are getting ridiculous at the moment. At mine the word gender has replaced sex in all the equality/anti discrimination documents, and the criterion for Women’s Officer is self-ID.

I was also told (by a straight, white male so this rankled a bit!) that I could only ever talk about gender from “an academic point of view”, so had to be very careful I didn’t hurt people’s feelings. Gender critical is not something to admit to at the moment... I’m half tempted to ‘come out’ as agender or non-binary! Then people would listen to me and tell me how brave I am. Well, until I said my preferrred pronouns correspond to my sex.

Holy crap @MNHQ what is going on?

Thanks KateMumsnet,you're all doing a great job keeping this a space for everyone to talk.

I was giving a reason why it's not ok to say some of the things you've said such as "trans women are not women/ female", or "trans women should be treated like men" because it goes against the legal position.

Bloody hell. You can't seriously be suggesting that women aren't allowed to disagree with a law. And "say some things" about it. Out loud.

Women have disagreed with hundreds of laws. And got them changed as a result. Otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to even express your opinions in public (regressive though they are and assuming you're female).

Furthermore, the law openly acknowledges that transwomen are biological males. Hence the exemptions.

Stop telling women they mustn't talk. It's a massive own goal.