Excellent article on the problem of transphobia

Leaving aside the sexy words like "epigenetic" and "transcript" meant to "blind 'em with science" ... am I correctly gleaning the take-home message that superficial and possibly temporary changes which could be influenced by hormone levels (e.g. hair or breast growth) are conveniently deemed "sufficient to categorise them as phenotypically [other-sex]", whilst other physical features which can't be easily influenced by hormone levels (e.g. sprouting of primary sex organs) are mysteriously lacking in importance for sex-categorisation purposes?

Also isn't this position actually severely transphobic because it's supposed to be entirely about self-identifying with one's deepest innate internal identity?

young transitioners aren't as you'd say "baked" yet is my point

Tens of thousands of babies will be born today around the world. In not one of those cases will anyone observing say, 'It could be a girl! Subject - of course - to the correct pubertal conditions!' There is a very good reason for that.

You're a fucking warrior, Bowlofbabelfish. Have some . You must be in sore need by now.

I'm not entirely clear what you were saying in your reply to my post @mumtobe25 - did you mean that you still think that transpeople biologically become the gender they identify as?

I'm really sad and worried about transgender people. This is dangerous stuff they're being peddled. A woman is going to die because she hasn't had appropriate treatment. I've only ever thought about women dying of cervical and breast cancer and men dying from testicular and prostrate cancer because they don't identify as having those particular sex characteristics. But there are loads more health risks it seems. And let's not even get into the health risks of 'puberty blockers'.

Actually - you mentioned trans parents. How are people going to become transparents when they're infertile and have zero libido?

Mum maybe you've never heard this saying before: The right to swing my arms ends where your nose begins.

Evidently not! It's quite a well known saying, Mum.

we're still expressing our own female transcript over our male one though. a phenotype is relative to hereditary genetics.

This makes no sense. We don’t have ‘a male transcript.’ A transcript is the product of the little machines that rattle along the DNA - they create an RNA chain and then that’s used to produce protein chains. That protein chain folds up to a make a protein. It isn’t Male or female, it’s just a stage in the way genes are expressed. Women don’t have ‘a male transcript’. There’s no such thing.

The only male specific transcript, read off the specifically male genes are some of the ones from the Y chromosome.

You’re using the word transcript in a completely wrong way.

a phenotype is relative to hereditary genetics. This means nothing.

Etymologically?? Etymology is the field of how words are used and change over history. Well I guess that’s relevant since woman now means anything anyone wants it to and we are throwing words around with gay abandon

I stand by my word salad comments of earlier. You are not using these words in any kind of correct context. Your arguments are incoherent and misguided.

Talking of word salad, mum you have good skills there. Your posts are tossed together abstract terms and no punctuation, making them very difficult to comprehend.

Your ideas about scientific method are confused.

I have no idea why you would be accusing babel of something nefarious, but your accusations make little sense.

You also seem to frequently infer meaning and offence from posts that is not there.

So, yes, generally struggling with your posts and your points.

How does this gross change happen?

Hormones and epigenetic changes.

What is this transcript change and how does it manifest itself?

The transcript is what part of your sex chromosome and other chromosomes are read and transcribed to proteins.
it happens by hormones binding to cell receptors and the repression of other signalling pathways.

What of the phenotype to they now share with the opposite sex and how did this occur?

They share skull size hip size hand size hight blood, secondary sex characteristics etc that are expressed within their family among females males etc.

What do you mean they are sufficiently the other sex?

I mean the physical traits they express are sufficient to categorise them as phenotypically female for the reasons I've stated above.

What do you mean the majority of the physiology criteria?

I mean a criteria that can be used; that takes into account all other aspects rather than the ability of primary sexual function the same criteria we use for others whose phenotype and genotype don't match.

you'll have to explain to me how developing through class feminism, white feminism, able bodied people vs the disabled, the lavander menace period and trans exclusionist feminism haven't been stepping stones to addressing all women and intersectional power balances between women my understanding is intersectional feminism isn't recent it's been long in the making.

Having failed in your appeal to scientific authority, you're also failing in your appeal to historical authority. None of these movements anticipated or led to the very modern movement to include men in the category of women.

@mumtobe25 - did you read this thread? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3236991-Biology-matters-in-medicine-medicine-failing-trans-individuals I thought you might find it interesting as a biologist.

OrchidInTheSun

very interesting I liked the study said it was difficult to draw any conclusions at this stage on trans physiology vs their cis counterparts. I'd like to see the same study with an age of transition control variable it would either support what I'm saying or make me question my observations.

TERFragetteCity just through gross physiological change via hormones and transcript change arguably they share more of the phenotype with their transitioned to sex hence the terms MTF and FTM so etymologically female to males are sufficiently adult human males and male to females are sufficiently adult human females but it comes down to whether one takes the majority of physiology as the criteria.

How does this gross change happen?
What is this transcript change and how does it manifest itself?
What of the phenotype to they now share with the opposite sex and how did this occur?
What do you mean they are sufficiently the other sex?
What do you mean the majority of the physiology criteria?

If you have a theory then please explain it so that I and others can see how this transition occurs.

jellyfrizz I am tall, flat chested and hairy. It doesn't make me male. me too. we're still expressing our own female transcript over our male one though. a phenotype is relative to hereditary genetics.

just through gross physiological change via hormones and transcript change arguably they share more of the phenotype with their transitioned to sex hence the terms MTF and FTM so etymologically female to males are sufficiently adult human males and male to females are sufficiently adult human females but it comes down to whether one takes the majority of physiology as the criteria.

I am tall, flat chested and hairy. It doesn't make me male.

Oh dear - I don't think this thread turned out quite how you intended @crispbuttyfan but it's an absolutely fascinating discussion. I am in awe of the range of skills and sheer brain power of so many women on the feminism boards. Thank you for giving them a platform.

@mumtobe25 - did you read this thread? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3236991-Biology-matters-in-medicine-medicine-failing-trans-individuals I thought you might find it interesting as a biologist.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets young transitioners aren't as you'd say "baked" yet is my point

I showed my DS(16) - who is trans - this article and he just laughed. He finds the whole trans movement ridiculous and spends a lot of time ranting about it. Nothing I've read on MN is transphobic, and DS agrees too.

jellyfrizz no I haven't but in context it sounds like she'd saying transgirls are violent.

I don't think you need a background in Biochemistry to understand that you can't turn a boy into a girl or a man into a woman.

When I make an apple crumble to eat after Sunday lunch I start with flour. That doesn't mean that once I've made the apple crumble I can change it into a Yorkshire Pudding.

It doesn't matter how many times you say 'endogenous epigenetics' and click your heels together. Once that shit is baked it's baked.

TERFragetteCity just through gross physiological change via hormones and transcript change arguably they share more of the phenotype with their transitioned to sex hence the terms MTF and FTM so etymologically female to males are sufficiently adult human males and male to females are sufficiently adult human females but it comes down to whether one takes the majority of physiology as the criteria.

Mum maybe you've never heard this saying before: The right to swing my arms ends where your nose begins.

You claim you want debate but I don't think that is what you want if it was you wouldn't stoop to this p.s. TERFragette it's a beautifully sesquipidalian word to describe using complex words or sentences when a shorter simpler one would do. As for manipulation I don't want to go into it let's just say there's an individual who has been fanning flames pushing outdated theories like agp and generally harassing transwomen I'm aware of it gives them relevance and some sort of sense of purpose I suppose . However, that individual would never admit error their nature won't allow them, so I might be wrong with my suspicion.

Huh? I am interested in your thought process and the biological explanation of how men can change into women. You promised some biology. I am still waiting.

you're reducing some of my best friends to violent stereotypes here that's uncalled for and definitely transphobic.

huh?

Though I thank you for your blunt honesty It's disheartening to hear the goal posts are just moved further for my friends regardless of medical progress.

I couldn't care less what they do if they stay out of women's spaces and stop claiming to be actual women. I have no problem with their self expression or them swinging their arms. I only say "hold on a minute" when my nose is in the way.

now hang on I can get behind making sure cis men don't have access to women spaces many transwomen would to but you're reducing some of my best friends to violent stereotypes here that's uncalled for and definitely transphobic.