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Original poster

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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MaterialReality · 03/05/2018 15:08

'Ada should not be categorised as female during Parkrun' ≠ 'Ada should not be in Parkrun'

I recognise that you disagree with the first statement, but pretending that people are actually saying the second instead doesn't help your argument.

CadyHeron · 03/05/2018 14:42

Auntie Stella - same. A woman, and been on both threads since the beginning. And a parkrunner.
Absolutely no problems at all and love the fact parkrun is so friendly and inclusive.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 03/05/2018 14:40

nd yes, there have been plenty i comments that Ada should not be in Parkrun as she currently

Thats not what you said

I agree with this statement...not your original one

AuntieStella · 03/05/2018 14:27

I have been on this thread since page 1.

And yes, there have been plenty i comments that Ada should not be in Parkrun as she currently is. Please do not gaslight,, by suggesting (even if it was not your intention) that I have not been on this thread through, or that my understanding is faulty.

(and I was also on the deleted thread)

Baroquehavoc · 03/05/2018 14:02

My voice matters in exactly the same way as anyone else's, so some don't think Ada should be there, and some do.

I don't think anyone has said that? It's frustrating when people add comments to a long thread without having read (or understood?) the thread and making assumptions as to what the thread is about and what previous posters have said.

jellyfrizz · 03/05/2018 13:55

My voice matters in exactly the same way as anyone else's, so some don't think Ada should be there, and some do.

But no one has said they don’t think Ada should be there.

AuntieStella · 03/05/2018 13:37

"Well Ada has decided how woman running in park run are placed. When woman are saying we don’t want that. So yes I think Ada is saying Adas feelings are more important"

No that doesn't stack up. Firstly, Parkrun decides what happens in Parkrun. They publish times (it was always a timed run) but every single communication stresses that it is not about the times, it's about participation and inclusion. It is not a competition.

I am a female Parkrunner who is perfectly happy for inclusivity and self identification in non-competitive community events.

My voice matters in exactly the same way as anyone else's, so some don't think Ada should be there, and some do. The final and only arbiter is Parkrun itself.

If change is wanted, the regular runners are going to need to lobby their Event Director and Run Directors, and/or email Parkrun directly. But a plan of what changes would improve Parkrun is of course going to be a necessary/welcome starting point. And of course, if Parkrun numbers actually start falling (because people who find their approach to inclusivity intolerable, and are easily able to vote with their feet by running in different events or clubs, and they let Parkrun know why) then that would be the strongest form of persuasion.

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 12:26

Round and round and round we go, where it stops nobody knows.

CadyHeron · 03/05/2018 12:18

Hear, hear, Lichtie!!

Lichtie · 03/05/2018 11:59

How is Ada saying her feelings are more important, she is just saying her feelings. Why are your feelings more important? You don't speak for all women anymore than I do and I'm happy for Ada to run as a female if she wants and parkrun allow it.
Yes some women won't like it, but some women don't like the fast runners shouting at them to move, some women don't like the slow runners getting in their way, some women don't like the open courses where public have right of way too.
If you don't like parkrun you don't have to do it, if you care about stats and comparison there are competitions where it is checked. Nobody's data is checked in parkrun. I'm pretty sure some people lie about their ages, does it matter, not a bit.

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 11:40

BIB. That's the bit they'll never admit, isn't it? Like seeing your new name on a Parkrun website with F in the gender column.

Exactly, then they like to rub it into womens faces as we've seen on this thread.

ICJump · 03/05/2018 11:19

Well Ada has decided how woman running in park run are placed. When woman are saying we don’t want that. So yes I think Ada is saying Adas feelings are more important.

Thanksforthatamazingpost · 03/05/2018 11:11

ICJump,

Surely Ada is not saying her feelings are more important? She's specifically acknowledging that she can't change our minds on the "I'm a woman" point and rather than throwing a hissy fit she's acknowledging that she doesn't have a right to encroach on natal women's spaces?

I think Ada gets that for natal women we have to centre ourselves.

ICJump · 03/05/2018 09:40

Ada I asked early why your feelings are more important than my biology. You didn’t answer then and I dropped it but given you wrote this And if that is your perspective, the kindest, fairest approach is to find a way of letting me live my life as safely as possible, but without encroaching on the issues of the people you do acknowledge as women, who genuinely do have issues that need attention and effort.
I ask again why are you feelings more important than my biology?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 03/05/2018 08:40

sardine

Really dont want to say the name but she is on the shon faye thread

MargeH · 03/05/2018 08:38

spontaneousgiventime: In all the time I have been reading then posting about this, one thing sticks out in my mind. Feminists have said time and time and time again, they have the know how and ability to help trans people fight for their own spaces. Every feminist has said (me included) they would support this and campaign for this. Go out of our way to help trans people gain their own safe spaces too. It's been thrown in our faces time and time again, especially by trans woman because they want our spaces because it's validating to enter a sex segregated womans space

BIB. That's the bit they'll never admit, isn't it? Like seeing your new name on a Parkrun website with F in the gender column.

And that's why we'll struggle to find a compromise on this.

Thanksforthatamazingpost · 03/05/2018 08:36

Thanks for replies Ada.

“Believe it or not, I genuinely empathise with this frustration. If you don't see me as a woman, of course you're not going to acknowledge me as a woman. And if that is your perspective, the kindest, fairest approach is to find a way of letting me live my life as safely as possible, but without encroaching on the issues of the people you do acknowledge as women, who genuinely do have issues that need attention and effort.”

SardineReturns · 03/05/2018 08:35

I can't see the tweets of the person mentioned.

SardineReturns · 03/05/2018 08:33

Not to dearail, who is being threatened, having people want her to have to give birth to a dead baby? And to have her killed?

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 03/05/2018 08:19

And I just wanted to add, that although I have plenty of ways I could tell you I know I'm a woman, I can't tell you how I know I am a transwoman. Because I'm not a transwoman.

Trans people have their own set of unique experiences, which are valid, important and absolutely need to be listened to. But they are not the experiences of a woman.

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 03/05/2018 08:16

Exactly Datun.

Most women could tell you exactly how they know they are a woman. For some of them, it's periods, PMT, endo, childbirth, breastfeeding. For some of them it's having the burden of always having to be the one responsible for contraception, because if it goes tits up then they will be the one who ends up pregnant. For some of them it's having to try and terminate their own pregnancy by any means possible because they cannot access a safe abortion. For some of them it's their (as my lovely friend friend who has just resigned herself to the fact that she will never have a child of her own) 'ovaries not fucking working'. For some of them it's menopause and all that entails. For some of them it's getting the news that their smear test has shown cancerous cells in their cervix. For some of them its not being allowed to go to school because they have a vagina. For some of them it's not being allowed to watch sporting events. For some of them it's being trafficked into prostitution as children. For some of them it's being harassed in the street, at work, on a night out. For some of them it's being discriminated at work.

Most transwomen cannot tell you how they know they are a woman: they 'just know'.

#womanisnotafeelinginamanshead

ferntwist · 03/05/2018 07:45

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 03/05/2018 05:55

I think that last post deserves to be printed in bold. It's the crux of it for me

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 03/05/2018 05:53

Thank you Datun

Datun · 03/05/2018 01:49

AdaRuns

You're not the first transwoman on here to claim they cannot describe the way they feel, they just know they're a woman.

I would like to know what was running through your head the day before you decided to transition? You must have had a billion thoughts running through your head about what it would be like, how it would feel, what it would look like. I do, sincerely, believe that the reason you won't say is because it will be all about stereotypes.

That's not to say that those thoughts and feelings don't have any credibility, though.

I just wish you could understand that the reason you cannot possibly describe how you know you're a woman, is because being a woman simply isn't a feeling.

It's a description. Of biological reproductive function. That's why you can't feel it. You just know that presenting as woman makes you feel better. Because gender dysphoria.

We had a transsexual on here recently who transitioned decades ago. They said that part of the treatment was to make sure that the person understood that they were biologically male and could not, would not, change sex.

I'm sure you know you can't change sex, but you feel as though your sex is determined by the way you think, not your anatomy.

I understand why you would want to think that, but really, honestly, the definition of sex just isn't that complicated. It has a very simple meaning.

And none of this would matter, and nobody would care, if the category of females weren't relentlessly disadvantaged by the category of males.