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Original poster

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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CadyHeron · 03/05/2018 19:31

Telling them they're "doing it wrong", accusing of narcissm, to play fair, you're not one of us.... nope, nobody's making them feel not welcome/ they should be banned if "not doing it right" at all...Hmm
Anyone can do it how they like.

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 19:29

Whatisoccuring Was that little pearl of wisdom aimed at me? If so, I was replying to SardineReturns with a heavy dose of sarcasm that I am still allowed to do.

Whatisoccuring · 03/05/2018 19:28

trans-identifying males

Calling women trans-identifying males is definitely transphobic.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/05/2018 19:28

You're being silly now. That might be to hide your transphobia

I'm sorry, I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about - I must have missed a post somewhere. Could you rephrase, or point me to what you are talking about?

Whatisoccuring · 03/05/2018 19:26

You're being silly now. That might be to hide your transphobia.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/05/2018 19:26

Forcing a transwoman out is transphobic though. Isn't it?

Nobody is forcing a transwoman out Hmm There have been numerous suggestions made, which do not involve trans-identifying males being banned from Parkrun

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 19:23

Well, naming womens genitals is straying into transphobia big time. I would suggest; only a man can become a TW, a biological woman can't, so how about female, none trans, none male, hole attached to bits and bobs pregnant people need?

I'm sure someone will find something transphobic in that word salad.

IJustNeedAUserName · 03/05/2018 19:23

And we are strictly talking about marking the result as “assisted” - because that’s a category that already exists at parkrun and takes that result outside the ranking that parkrun itself does - rather than an actual badge!!!

Whatisoccuring · 03/05/2018 19:21

"transwoman" as "transwoman"

Forcing a transwoman out is transphobic though. Isn't it?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/05/2018 19:19

Yes yes there was a reference to marking trans woman as 'assisted'. That is transphobic. You are proposing to publicly identify trans women.

Erm, no. That would be marking "transwoman" as "transwoman"

It could be compared to the identifying badge that a far right regime insisted on in 1940

It could be if you were deliberately and maliciously making untrue assertions.

JustGettingStarted · 03/05/2018 19:18

The person who introduced the idea of marking the run as assisted was one of the two trans posters. I think Lucy. They said that they would do it if they believed they had a significant advantage.

SardineReturns · 03/05/2018 19:15

Are we allowed any words to cover grown up cunt people and young cunt people?

Does anyone know what they are?

SardineReturns · 03/05/2018 19:14

If the principle is that TW are women and should be included in stats for women then it is a point of principle. Either they should be or not. For this, for competiiton, for crime stats, for pay stats, for diversity measures, for death rates and causes, and everything.

The principle of whether it is OK to include TW in with women does not change according to the event. If TW are women then they need to be treated as and included as women in ALL respects. And this is what TRAs are pushing for.

On top of this, we will need new words for the group of people with cunts, it would be useful to have one for grown up cunt people and child cunt people, in order to be able to report on stuff like the rubbish tips pakistan thread the other day.

Whatisoccuring · 03/05/2018 19:14

I just wanted to reiterate that no-one said anything about badge

Yes yes there was a reference to marking trans woman as 'assisted'. That is transphobic. You are proposing to publicly identify trans women. It could be compared to the identifying badge that a far right regime insisted on in 1940

SardineReturns · 03/05/2018 19:09

Sorry that was fro Stella.

This obfuscation is not on. And it's the whole problem - people wanting to control language.

On MN it is there written though so saying oh I never said that doesnt' work very well.

CadyHeron · 03/05/2018 19:08

Bewilderness- they're not doing it incorrectly at parkrun at all. Sorry to disappoint you, but they're really not.

SardineReturns · 03/05/2018 19:07

"My voice matters in exactly the same way as anyone else's, so some don't think Ada should be there, and some do."

No-one has said that TW should not be there. Now this has been pointed out, you are saying that you meant something else.

Maybe try to be clearer in your posts if you don't want them misread - a stack of posters read your post exactly the same as I did i.e. understanding it to mean what it said.

Dozer · 03/05/2018 19:06

A small number of transwomen in the womens public stats won’t make much difference statistically. The fairness issue IMO would be if transwomen placed in the higher rankings.

Dozer · 03/05/2018 19:02

It’s not a non competitive event.

This isn’t the same as the single sex spaces issue. The space is for everyone, the issue is fairness in the competitive element. So it’s more like sports issues.

I think your reasoning seems quite fair NatLuc.

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 19:02

@thebewilderness I think we need your misogyny rules on this thread.

thebewilderness · 03/05/2018 19:00

Are there really people who think if you tell someone they are doing something incorrectly that you are actually telling them they should not do it at all? Or is that just a rhetorical technique to accuse people of being exclusionary and selfish?
Does this sort of thing have flashing lights and sirens attached for other people the way it does for me? Maybe it is just me.

CadyHeron · 03/05/2018 19:00

Lichtie - bonkers, isn't it Grin Not sure what people aren't grasping it isn't competitive. Go to one that is if you care that much instead of huffing about parkrun. I'm a fatty non competitive parkrunner, maybe I "mess up' the stats too for the fast serious it's competitive because I say so types for having the cheek to walk round sometimes. Hmm

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 18:54

Lichtie Why should POC mark themselves as assisted. Using people of colour to make your point is vile and disgusting.

Lichtie · 03/05/2018 18:52

Jeezo, who takes the 'rankings' so seriously in a non competitive event. Who cares about slight advantages. I am taller than most, should I mark that as assisted. Are my longer legs an advantage? Should runners of African decent mark themselves as assisted? We are all unique and have our own advantages / diasadvantages, but we are not all competing at parkrun so the rankings mean very little. You might as well race people walking in the street.

IJustNeedAUserName · 03/05/2018 18:33

I’m not sure where all the stuff about RDs deciding on the day or making announcements comes from? I’m not suggesting parkrun decides, I’m suggesting the honourable thing to do is for the individual parkrunner to mark the run as ‘with assistance’.

Lots of aspects of parkrun run on an honour system - my home run is a 2 lap course, when I first started, I was running more than twice as slow as the speed merchants. I could have run through the funnel after one lap and zoomed up the rankings; no one would have stopped me or made announcements. I could put down the wrong age on my profile and zoom up the age grades; I doubt anyone would notice.

Trans women have physiological advantages over natal women (heart/lungs) and disadvantages (bones vs muscle mass). It is possible, though mathematically unlikely, that these effects EXACTLY cancel out. So the more likely scenarios are either (1) there is an advantage to being a transwoman; in which case, sorting the result as ‘F’ pushes a natal woman behind a place down the rankings compared with her biological peers whereas putting F (assisted) leaves the natal woman’s place unaffected; or (2) there is a net disadvantage to being a transwoman, in which case putting F pushes the natal woman behind a place higher than she should be.

Personally, unless 100% sure, I think the honourable thing to do would be to err on the side of advantaging others rather than disadvantaging them. Then again, that may be my female socialisation talking I suppose.