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Original poster

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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BrandNewHouse · 30/04/2018 13:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Springnowplease · 30/04/2018 13:16

Very poor show, HQ.

Original poster
TheUterati · 30/04/2018 13:15

@Sophie

Thank you for posting. This was one of the few threads, certainly the only one I can think of, that described a real life experience of the impact of GRA in sport. Whilst the intention may not have been to silence debate, you have erased that debate - an important debate that rarely happens here.

Impact of GRA in sport, whether these be 'fun runs' or the Olympics is a perfectly valid topic to discuss, as is whether 'self identification' should be considered to be de facto cheating, even if it is not de jure cheating.

To those who dismiss this is 'just a fin run', please consider that elite female athletes of the future may well start off by participating in such events as young girls. Their experiences matter just as every female's experience of participating matters.

OP posts:
MNHQ
SophieLMumsnet · 30/04/2018 13:07

Hi all,

We're not trying to silence anyone - we spend a huge amount of time doing our best to ensure these conversations can continue. We don't always get everything right, it's true; it's an incredibly complicated subject. We're sorry you felt we made an error here. We thought that particular thread wasn't really in the spirit. We do try not to zap whole threads, as you know - and we don't do it lightly.

Thanks for the feedback - we do listen, and we'll always take it on board.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 13:07
Grin
Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 13:07

thats fair enough rat

I just couldn't see what it was in reference to but I appreciate that it was mainly concerning the 'cheating' accusations on the other thread

RatRolyPoly · 30/04/2018 13:05

Dammit, done it again!

RatRolyPoly · 30/04/2018 13:05

No Rufus, I started writing it ages ago when the talk had turned to cheating but then I got distracted! Poor form really.

Original poster
TheUterati · 30/04/2018 13:01

I have reported my OP to MN. Either this thread will also be deleted or we will get a post from HQ.

OP posts:
Ellenripleysalienbaby · 30/04/2018 13:01

Just a general question on the issue. Is a woman allowed to take artificial testosterone which would bring her up to agreed upper testosterone limit for the women's competitions currently in place? Not talking about Park Run here obvs!

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 13:01

Agree, myse1f.

NOT A RACE! NO ISSUE!

Yes.In a competitive race, shouldn't be allowed. Park Run, no race, no issue.

We have this amazing forum to really debate the issues and then it gets put at risk by those who are clearly transphobic. We are walking a fine line here and Justine is backing us.
This too. I like the fact you can have a proper debate on here, from both sides. The fact that there was accusations of cheating when no-ones doing anything of the sort, as well as blatant transphobia (which to be fair to MN, the thread went soon after.)
If the thread's going to look like swiss cheese as it'd be that full of holes with deletions, I can see why they'd take the whole thing down.

ThisisSparta · 30/04/2018 12:58

I am disappointed that HQ pilled the thread, I think that anyone born male should not be competing in women’s categories and i think we need to have these conversations!

The erasure of women in sport is just as insidious at grassroots level as it is in the professional arena, grassroots sport is important, it can help women make friendships, develop confidence, and keep fit and well physically and mentally, and I think allowing trans identified males to compete as a women undermines women’s sport as a whole.

Original poster
TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:57

Myse1f - again, a post that could have formed part of that discussion.....

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 12:56

.unless you're saying being trans is a made up thing in people's minds which they say they are simply because they want to trick everyone into conferring onto them some advantage?

No, you've created a false dichotomy. It's possible to believe that they genuinely believe that they are women, but are breaking the social contract of fair play.

Original poster
TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:56

Rat - and that post could have been part of the debate on the original thread, could it not?

Perfectly valid for you to bring that to the discussion...

OP posts:
Original poster
TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:54

Sorry - that looks like Auntie Cady... I meant Auntie AND Cady.....

OP posts:
Original poster
TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:54

Auntie Cady - still not a good enough reason to take down an entire thread.

And how is this supposed to work anyway? No threads allowed about Tesco, on the grounds that Tesco can be contacted directly by the OP in order to sort out the problem? No posts allowed about the NHS on the grounds that the OP can contact PALS and sort the problem out or get in touch with their MP? No threads allowed about schools, because OP can contact Governors and get it dealt with?

Just because there could possibly be an avenue of recourse open to the OP to get the issue addressed in real life does not mean that discussion about it here is invalid. If it does, then over half the contents of MN needs to be deleted.

OP posts:
Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 12:53

Is that aimed at anyone in particular rat

Myse1f · 30/04/2018 12:53

Oh Come On!
The whole premise of the thread was that the OP, who was not in a race, spotted that the person who crossed the line 2 secs before her was a trans athlete.
NOT A RACE! NO ISSUE!
We have this amazing forum to really debate the issues and then it gets put at risk by those who are clearly transphobic. We are walking a fine line here and Justine is backing us. Deliberate misnaming of individuals (just rude) and frothing over whether someone else in a race was wearing a skirt is a waste of our energies and makes others less likely to engage with us.

RatRolyPoly · 30/04/2018 12:52

Okay, well if we're so very wedded to the dictionary definitions of things, I'm afraid it isn't cheating. Collins dictionary link

Example 1: When someone cheats, they do not obey a set of rules which they should be obeying, for example in a game or exam.

Except transpeople do obey the rules placed upon them when participating. Explicitly. There are rules, they follow them, they compete.

Example 2: to deceive or practise deceit, esp for one's own gain; trick or swindle (someone); to obtain unfair advantage by trickery, as in a game of cards

Except transpeople don't practice deceit in order to gain an advantage. They may arguably have an advantage - you can argue that if you like - but they have this in virtue of their being trans, not in virtue of any trickery.

...unless you're saying being trans is a made up thing in people's minds which they say they are simply because they want to trick everyone into conferring onto them some advantage? And if that's what you're saying, well, I think we all know a word we might use for that.

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 12:50

women discuss why they, on the whole, find this is unfair, but, on the whole, agree parkrun should not have to take steps to do anything about this, it is more a matter of trust, honour and princple. whether or not the individual meant to cheat or not is almost irrelevant as the issue spoke of a wider problem.

This.

onedayiwillmissthis · 30/04/2018 12:47

Wow.. MNHQ took down whole thread!
It is important to be able to discuss any aspect of women's lives however 'petty' some may think.

AuntieStella · 30/04/2018 12:45

And if you want to see changes to how Parkrun is run, I'll repeat my suggestion that you need to talk to your local Event Director and/or Run Directors, perhaps in co-ordination with your running club (if they support whatever changes you wish to propose)

Or email directly to the Head of Pariticpation

www.parkrun.org.uk/aboutus/

RaininSummer · 30/04/2018 12:45

Quite depressing that an important discussion was removed.

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 12:44

So threads to discuss cheating in athletics are probably better off centred on competitive sport, not an inclusive, not-for-profit, mass participation, non-competitive, community based event.

This.