Trans Park Run Deletion

A place was taken away from a woman.

4th place was taken away.

If the principle is that self ID is fine and if someone IDs as a woman / girl then they are one, then that will be the case across schools etc. Obviously.

In the USA this is a big issue for girls / women, as sports scolarships are a way for people who don't have much money to get to study at university (very expensive over there).

In the UK, I think it will simply make even more girls opt out. How many girls will want to carry on with people who ID as girls in communal changing and then thrashing them at the sport?

I mean it's admirable to battle against the odds but there comes a point where it's perfectly reasonable to just fuck it off.

Girls are very likely to become disengaged if their achievements are compared to those of people who will always be stronger and faster than them

Yep

It is the same thing. In secondary school every one has to play sports. There is space for all. Girls are very likely to become disengaged if their achievements are compared to those of people who will always be stronger and faster than them.

Or if they do, the actual point of it has completely whoooooshed over their heads.

I think you and the point are very ill acquainted, personally. Also, you don't really seem to understand what transitioning means.

The op of the trans thread didn’t know if the person who crossed the line in front of her was trans or not.

She was pretty positive they were trans

Parkrun isnt competitive

No but people are...the OP certainly was

To be honest, ReluctantCamper, I'm not really inclined to explore whataboutism if you're going to ignore my entire comment and focus on a single closing line.

In this specific instance, there's a trade-off to be made between the damage caused by being excusionary to a vulnerable group and... nothing. There is literally no repurcussion to allowing trans people to compete in Parkrun.

Perhaps there's a case to be made at higher levels of sport, but that should be done sensitively, and proportionately to the severity of the problem.

Many people, if in a postition where they are unlikely to make any headway, will say fuck it.

This is the reason that sport was sex separated in the first place, surely? As if men and women compete against each other, women will always fail, always lose. Well, pretty much always.

Women already come second place in society behind men in many areas - much of society was set up for "default male" - apart from a few discrete areas eg post natal groups and similar. We are already set up to fail in so many areas of life. Must sport really be added? Or is this about redressing the "balance" - putting these uppity women back in their place. We repeatedly see from MRAs that if women want equality then we should but equal in sports to and HA gotcha. This is it, isn't it? This is what MRAs want.

NOT THE SAME THING! In that situation, there is a finite number of places available, so including a boy who identified as a girl would be denying a girl a place. In Parkrun, the more the merrier! So no woman is losing a place by the inclusion of transwomen.

Exactly, I really think some don't actually know what parkrun is! Or if they do, the actual point of it has completely whoooooshed over their heads.

I suppose a similar situation could be in secondary schools where teams etc are separated by sex but not always playing competitively.

NOT THE SAME THING! In that situation, there is a finite number of places available, so including a boy who identified as a girl would be denying a girl a place. In Parkrun, the more the merrier! So no woman is losing a place by the inclusion of transwomen.

Lesson learned - women are much funnier than men. But we already knew that.

On the OP, I still don't understand why that thread was deleted. No individuals were named, so technically it was doing exactly what HQ has been telling us to do (discuss the issue, not the person).

Well i missed the whole thing angry

Imagine my disappointment!!

It was fun though!

(pouts)

OK never mind, back to your regularly scheduled why can't we talk about male people competing in women's sports being a problem discussion.

angry

But was he deleted for being a goady mo'fo

Finger!

And now a totally harmless, fun thread in which everyone was taking the piss out of a ridiculous bloke attempting to mansplain how women are Doing Dating Wrong has been deleted too. Does someone over at HQ have their finer superglued to the delete thread button?!

"Clearly there should be an element of common sense... if Linford Christie decided to compete as a woman (but made no other changes to his life) that would be deeply suspect... "

Why would that be deeply suspect? What other changes has this person (from the deleted thread) made? Not many by the sounds of it.

You don't think Lauren Hubbard is enjoying medal status that they wouldn't have got as a male competitor? Think again.

I suppose a similar situation could be in secondary schools where teams etc are separated by sex but not always playing competitively.

The impact of girls and women being beaten by people who self ID as female but do not have female bodies should not be underestimated.

"Friendly compeition" is a thing, and also striving to get better against your peers.

It is difficult enough to retain engagement of girls with sports at secondary and past that, for a variety of reasons, some connected to our bodies (periods (swimming / martial arts outfits / pain etc), breasts (uncomfortable / embarassing / etc) and social reasons (girls not wanting to be seen red faced / sweaty / hair out of order etc).

This issue and the reasons are well known.

If further to that, girls are expected to play with and against people who they will never be as good as, then it's literally game over, isn't it?

Or is fair play only for men?

Oh FFS!

If that was the 'reason' given, and it was going on for days, then remove those particular comments. The majority of comments were not even about that.

The silencing of women's dissent continues...

What about the British sense of fair play richmarr?

Surely someone who says they are Y when they are actually X, who then takes a place reserved for Y is pretty much the definition of cheating?

I'm sorry MNHQ but in this case you made a bad call IMO.

Accusations of "cheating" require dishonest intent. For that to be a fair accusation, you'd have to have reasonable grounds to believe that a non-trans man decided to compete as a woman (along with all the relevant legal and medical processes) just in order to further his sporting career. Is there any evidence that actually happens? Seems somewhat unlikely to me... especially at an inclusive amateur event with no prizes, no recognition, no publicity, etc.

In absence of evidence the default assumption has to be that cases like this are just trans people who happen to like sport... in which case there should be a balance between concerns. Clearly there should be an element of common sense... if Linford Christie decided to compete as a woman (but made no other changes to his life) that would be deeply suspect... but similarly treating all trans women as "men" would be hugely disrespectful and insensitive to one of our most vulnerable demographics (40% of trans people have attempted suicide and that number gets even higher when you look at those who are rejected by family or social groups).

Ultimately I question what the outcome you're asking for is here. An amateur event like Parkrun cannot possibly look into the legal or medical situation of competitors, they just don't have the resources for that. They'd be left asking run directors to exclude individuals based on subjective judgement on the spot, sending anyone who didn't 'look right' home. Regardless of whether the intent was transphobic, that would be a transphobic outcome not worthy of British tolerance.

There are men and there are women and they have well understood biological differences AuntieStella. The only change needed to the results page is to change the word 'gender' to 'sex'.

The other change required is for people to take full responsibility for the impact of their choices on others.