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Original poster

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 15:12

No there wasn't. It's not transphobic to say that male people are male/men.

I never said it was.
You seem unable to grasp that there's a difference between self ID'ing as a woman and actually fully transitioned to females though.

ReluctantCamper · 30/04/2018 15:12

No exclusion richmarr. Transwomen should obviously be free to compete as males.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 15:12

You know the conversation we were having about how specific commenters are being targeted and HQ doesn't really understand what's happening? Excellent example here.

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 15:10

Well, that's an edited version, for sure.There was a bit more to what you said than that

No there wasn't. It's not transphobic to say that male people are male/men. It's not transphobic to say that decent people play by the rules of fair play.

BeUpStanding · 30/04/2018 15:06

Another one here saying MNHQ got it wrong on this occasion.

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 15:06

What on earth do you think was so bad about what I said? You said that trans identified males are women, I said that they aren't. It's my personal view. Its not "transphobia".What exactly do you think self ID means?

Well, that's an edited version, for sure.There was a bit more to what you said than that - but I'm not daft enough to repeat otherwise comments will start getting deleted/or the thread and then people will say they're being shut down again.

coffeecupofmilk · 30/04/2018 15:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 15:05

We all know it's an honour system and the least an MTF trans participant could do would be to mark their time as assisted so that women are able to properly compare themselves against other women.

It's bad sporting behaviour. It's unfair and discouraging to competitive women. It gives a false picture of attainment level to all participating women. In the round, it's just not on. Some might see it as the typical entitled attitude not usually associated with women.

Agree 100%.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 15:04

They aren't in a skirt or male up every day

Well thats an unfortunate typo

AuntieStella · 30/04/2018 15:03

"I'd argue that they are both the same concept, just on different scales. We all know the vast majority of people enter Boston just to finish, with no plan or hope of winning it, yet it is a race Does that make it ok to be annoyed at the same happening?"

Yes, my bold added because it's an entirely different event, held under competition rules

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 15:03

Seeing as the thread got pulled minutes after your comment on the other thread, it's not surprising you don't really understand.
I understand a lot more than you seem to do.

What on earth do you think was so bad about what I said? You said that trans identified males are women, I said that they aren't. It's my personal view. Its not "transphobia". It's been expressed many many times by many many people. All the posts in the thread were about that very subject.

What exactly do you think self ID means?

coffeecupofmilk · 30/04/2018 15:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 15:02

Cady - you ask ‘why should Parkrun change?’Then suggest a change!Make your mind up!!!

Will say slowly.
I don't think it should change.
I think it's doing fine just as it is.
Which is including everyone. Regardless of age, sex, ability.
Just meant some clearly are not happy with what it's about and want it to be competitive.
So was giving a solution. Doesn't mean I want that solution.

richmarr · 30/04/2018 15:02

Okay ReluctantCamper, so what evidence is there that girls will become disengaged?

Exclusing people is directly damaging, so if you want that to happen I'd expect a high quality argument, and ideally evidence.

What exposure are you suggesting girls will have to trans athletes, and at what age, and in what numbers? In what other field has a similar effect been observed that we can use as a benchmark for this consequence you're predicting?

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 15:01

There is literally no repurcussion to allowing trans people to compete in Parkrun.

Yes, there is. Parkrun encourages participants to compare their performance against other people of the same sex and age group. This is so that they can assess themselves against average performance for their sex and age group and monitor their progress as they participate.

MTF trans participants will skew that data so that women aren't getting an accurate picture of how they compare to other women. And those participants who are competitive will feel the obvious unfairness.

We all know it's an honour system and the least an MTF trans participant could do would be to mark their time as assisted so that women are able to properly compare themselves against other women.

It's bad sporting behaviour. It's unfair and discouraging to competitive women. It gives a false picture of attainment level to all participating women. In the round, it's just not on. Some might see it as the typical entitled attitude not usually associated with women.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/04/2018 15:01

if women set up a park run just for women

It would actually be mixed, as transwomen would choose to include themselves.

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 14:59

if women set up a park run just for women, this would be illegal wouldn't it.

No it wouldn't. People are still free to set up their own parkrun with their own rules and ethos,that's not illegal.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 30/04/2018 14:59

Cady - you ask ‘why should Parkrun change?’

Then suggest a change!

Make your mind up!!!

ShotsFired · 30/04/2018 14:58

I am just catching up on things, and was disappointed to see the thread got zapped. Some pp have commented that it wasn't a race it was only a fun run type comments.

But as the author of (both!) threads about the Boston Marathon being affected in exactly the same way, I'd argue that they are both the same concept, just on different scales. We all know the vast majority of people enter Boston just to finish, with no plan or hope of winning it, yet it is a race. Does that make it ok to be annoyed at the same happening?

@TheUterati posted with a similar disappointment to me which is essentially that women's records in sporting events are at risk of being taken from us by males; and the organisers (and the men running under the female flag, naturally!) see nothing wrong with this. We disagree and want to talk about it, given we're the same sex of the ones affected.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 14:56

reluctant

Grin

Thats funny...it was a very good point though

Worth repeating

SardineReturns · 30/04/2018 14:55

And of course it will be illegal for women to set up their own stuff to do either fun or competition.

if women set up a park run just for women, this would be illegal wouldn't it.

We know that MRAs have been on at race for life for years for sexism, now they can join.

Interstingly, I have never heard women getting the arsehole over eg movember.

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 14:55

I think you and the point are very ill acquainted, personally. Also, you don't really seem to understand what transitioning means.

Seeing as the thread got pulled minutes after your comment on the other thread, it's not surprising you don't really understand.
I understand a lot more than you seem to do.

ReluctantCamper · 30/04/2018 14:54

Sorry, didn't realise I was quoting myself, thought that was from Sardine

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 14:52

No but people are...the OP certainly was

So the people wanting to compete, there's plenty of runs out there that do.
Why should parkrun completely change what it's about to appease a few?
As a pp said, the more the merrier. It's not taking places away from anyone.
It's only in the table when you get home via rankings 1 - 200 or however many people you are running against that you see a column next to a name. M or F. There are no categories.
The column with m and f could be taken out to take care of this. Just name.
Or are you suggesting that they should mark themselves out in some way? Put a T against them or something? That's kind of the very definition of excluding or othering if they've transitioned.
In a competitive setting, absolutely they have an advantage - unfair.
Parkrun though is the more the merrier, everyone just runs/walks whatever.

ReluctantCamper · 30/04/2018 14:52

Girls are very likely to become disengaged if their achievements are compared to those of people who will always be stronger and faster than them

And that would be a yes from me too. This is the trade off richmarr.

No action is without consequences