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Original poster

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 15:48

I do agree with Cady that Parkrun would destroy its own ethos by attempting to police this officially,

Yes

I think cady is bang on the money with that

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 15:47

This is the definition of transphobia

Definition of transphobia. : irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against transgender or transsexual people.

I can't see itsallgoing has done the above

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 15:45

Why do they collect and display biological information?

I don't know.

Isn't it obvious? People enjoy comparing themselves on a like by like basis. Parkrun want to encourage this because a) it helps their popularity to offer extras that people like, and b) it will motivate people to keep coming back and therefore improve their fitness.

I do agree with Cady that Parkrun would destroy its own ethos by attempting to police this officially, especially not aggressively. But any MTF trans participant who doesn't at least mark themselves as assisted is behaving in an extremely entitled and unsporting manner and making it harder for women to compare themselves against other women.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/04/2018 15:43

So taking self ID out of the equation, you are saying that fully transitioned males to females are still male?

Yes.

Can you not see that that is kind of the definition of transphobic?

It is unfortunate that facts based on verifiable reality are deemed transphobic by the thought police.

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 15:41

This reply has been deleted

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AlecTrevelyan006 · 30/04/2018 15:40

The fact that Parkrun collects data on gender means they can prove that 49% of participants are female - which is a really useful statistic to know for studies about female participation in sport and exercise

It would be a less useful statistic if lots of people recorded as female were actually trans women

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 15:36

I don't know, it's obviously problematic for some when it's non competitive.

Yes it is problematic when they are quite clearly directly encouraging competition.

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 15:35

They are both male. What other differences are important?

So taking self ID out of the equation, you are saying that fully transitioned males to females are still male?
Can you not see that that is kind of the definition of transphobic?

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 15:34

Why do they collect and display biological information?

I don't know, it's obviously problematic for some when it's non competitive.
Should they just stop collecting it? It only ever shows next to name on the rankings board. Doesn't matter a jot in the event itself.
As someone said, the more the merrier. It's not taking away places for women or anything,as males and females are all in one big list together.
(I'm happy for it to stop as it is, not advocating getting rid of it.)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/04/2018 15:32

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AlecTrevelyan006 · 30/04/2018 15:32

Parkrun IS competitive for anyone who wants it to be

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 15:31

Parkrun isn't competitive though.

Why do they collect and display biological information?

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 15:29

In general women and girls are not supposed to be competiitve, especially not ruthlessly so as required at higher levels, and if they really must do sport they must do it while looking sexually appealing.

Confused Women absolutely can be competitive at sports. Parkrun isn't competitive though. Since when do women have to do sport whilst looking sexually appealing?! I must have forgotten to get a copy of that memo. I look like an overweight running bag lady, and have zero make up on (like I have zero make up on every other day) when I do it. That is just.....complete, total projection on your part as of course women can be competitive, of course they can run non prettily.
AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 15:28

Yes

busyboysmum · 30/04/2018 15:26

It seems to me that feminist chat has got very anti-feminist all of a sudden. I don't recognise all these new posters but they certainly don't seem to have very feminist views. Are we under attack by MRAs?

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 15:25

Agree with trousers

Peer reviewed evidence will be required Smile

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 30/04/2018 15:23

SardineReturns

richmarr won't accept that. Wait for the ridiculing, minimising and criticisms of feminism/equality/insert something about women here to arrive next.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 15:23

The willingness to handwave away concerns about competitiveness and fairness that surrounds this debate indicates a complete contempt for women's sport. If it was seen the same way men's sport is nobody would be arguing the need to define clear boundaries and make sure fair competition is possible.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 15:21

Well, that's an edited version, for sure.There was a bit more to what you said than that

I think thats very poor form

If you cant back it up (and I appreciate that its very unfortunate that the thread was deleted ) then i dont think you should be saying it

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 15:20

The idea that we need to have a study to show this otherwise how can we possibly know is silly.

The level of disingenuousness of this debate just serves to show how little people care about women and girls.

SardineReturns · 30/04/2018 15:19

"richmarr Mon 30-Apr-18 15:02:00
Okay ReluctantCamper, so what evidence is there that girls will become disengaged?"

Isn't it obvious that girls, who are already disengaged from sports, will become more so if they are to share facilities with self id girls and compete with / against them at sports or in school games etc?

The idea that we need to have a study to show this otherwise how can we possibly know is silly.

We are human beings, and we know that if people are set up to fail then they do not enjoy the thing, whatever it is. We know that girls are opting out of sport, and we know the reasons. Add in, a prospect of always being shit (when compared to the cohort of girls who weirdly always come first) and obviously there will be an impact.

This is the point though? In general women and girls are not supposed to be competiitve, especially not ruthlessly so as required at higher levels, and if they really must do sport they must do it while looking sexually appealing. Generally, societies say that sports are really a man thing. Only in the last few years have we been gettign more exposure, more sponsorship etc. Lots of poeple don't like this. And so, here is the solution. Put sport back where it belongs.

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 15:17

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Lichtie · 30/04/2018 15:17

Men will always win? Didn't she come 5th, so were all 4 runners in front her trans? Doubt it.
It's a fun event, not a competition, I don't see the big deal (in the scenario discussed, competitive sport is another discussion).

SporadicSpartacus · 30/04/2018 15:15

Either it’s entirely for fun, relaxed and non competitive, or it’s an event where times are recorded for each sex class...

Can’t have both, IMO. I think the PPs who mentioned the role of events like Parkrun as a gateway to competitive sport are making a really good point.

This board is beginning to look like Swiss cheese with all the deletions. Didn’t see the more recent comments on the parkrun thread that may have lead to the deletion so can’t really say whether it was justified. I just hope some discretion is being applied, as as mentioned upthread, it was a specific anecdote about gender ideology directly impacting a woman’s sporting result and her feelings about that. That’s valuable, except now it’s been deleted.

ReluctantCamper · 30/04/2018 15:14

But CadyHeron these days how do you tell? According to the Labour Party anyone who says they're a woman is one. That seems to be the default rule now