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Original poster

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 17:13

Oh Christ thats a bad crosspost

As i said cady not aimed at you at all

That's alright then,will let you off Grin
thanks for the wine and flowers, my fave lol

TERFragetteCity · 30/04/2018 17:08

Making them feel excluded from an inclusionary, for everyone event, kind of is discriminating against them though.

How is it discrimination to call a man a man?

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 17:07

Oh Christ thats a bad crosspost

As i said cady not aimed at you at all

Wine
Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 17:06

Sometimes when people post i really just want to yell

Fuck off you stupid cunt

Thats wrong isnt it

Thats not directed at you at all cady i dont agree with everything youve said but youve been very measured and engaged Thanks

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 17:04

I thought everyone was welcome at park runs

They are!! People reading these threads would think otherwise though.
That's the whole point. Everyone's welcome,regardless of ability or sex.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 17:02

making them feel excluded from an inclusionary, for everyone event, kind of is discriminating against them though

I thought everyone was welcome at park runs

jellyfrizz · 30/04/2018 17:01

Do it OnTheList, everyone is really friendly and encouraging however fast or slow you are. It really is about getting out there and doing it.

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 17:00

Onthelist you really should, you'll be made to feel welcome. You most definitely can walk it, in fact a fair few do. It's not a race.Of course there's a lot who do race, but there's also a lot who jog or walk round at their own pace and just treat it as a form of exercise.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 17:00

There are a huge number of challenges and injustices facing young girls, but they don't have an attempted suicide rate of 40%, so this is not an area where I personally am comfortable coming to hasty judgements.

Neither do trans people, would be interested in the evidence

You know sauce for the goose and all that

OnTheList · 30/04/2018 16:57

These threads have actually made me fairly interested in park run. There have been a few near me that I have ignored, but I am a bit tempted now. I did always assume it was like a race, and as such knew it was pointless for me. But if you can even walk it (probably whilst gulping morphine mind! As I will as usual be in a lot of pain) I might give it a go next time. My physio says I need to try and exercise more, though she knows it puts me in even more pain Confused

jellyfrizz · 30/04/2018 16:57

Should they have to have their own category as they've got "an advantage" over me? Being fit and everything?

If they did have a fat category, it wouldn't be very sporting for 'skinny, fast' runners to put themselves in that category would it?

Thing is, they do have male and female categories so the right thing to do is put yourself in the correct category.

FloraFox · 30/04/2018 16:55

So taking self ID out of the equation, you are saying that fully transitioned males to females are still male?
Can you not see that that is kind of the definition of transphobic?

You do know that humans can't actually change sex, don't you?

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 16:53

But you think it's ok to "discriminate" when it's a competition?

It's a completely different issue when it's a competition. Parkrun. Is. Not. A. Competition. People wanting it to be so doesn't make it automatically so. It just spoils it for everyone else, whether you're one of those saying "they can't run, it's not fair as they're bigger/faster/slimmer/more well trained/etc than me" or one of those sniggering at those running slower than the rest.
Everyone can do it.
In a competition, you should do it according to biology. As unfair advantage. This isn't a competition though.
Nobody has an advantage over others. The skinny, fast runners who leave fatty unfit me in the dust every week have an advantage over me.
Should they have to have their own category as they've got "an advantage" over me? Being fit and everything? No. As it's for everyone.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 16:53

Clearly not enough young girls are hurting themselves to make their concerns worth worrying about!

So feminist, so in keeping with the spirit of the board.

jellyfrizz · 30/04/2018 16:51

There are a huge number of challenges and injustices facing young girls, but they don't have an attempted suicide rate of 40%, so this is not an area where I personally am comfortable coming to hasty judgements.

From actual doctors records (rather than self-selecting surveys):
www.nhs.uk/news/mental-health/worrying-rise-reports-self-harm-among-teenage-girls-uk/

I assume those figures would also include trans people as they are total figures for young people however "About three-quarters of the young people who self-harmed were girls"

Carriemac · 30/04/2018 16:50

We all know it's an honour system and the least an MTF trans participant could do would be to mark their time as assisted so that women are able to properly compare themselves against other women.

It's bad sporting behaviour. It's unfair and discouraging to competitive women. It gives a false picture of attainment level to all participating women. In the round, it's just not on. Some might see it as the typical entitled attitude not usually associated with women.

Agree 100%

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 16:50

I don't really bake, but if anyone needs to know how to make spicy stir-fried things I'm at your service!

If you're nice and polite, that is. Not providing recipes for those who make a list of demands and then stand there tapping their foot all "hop to it, skivvy".

Mumtobe25 · 30/04/2018 16:49

This actually makes me feel a lot better I read about how the conversation devolved into transphobic remarks regardless of any civility that may have preceeded, as a member who has benefited so much from this wonderful network especially with my partners visa stuff and childcare advice it always saddens me when I hear some of the worst transphobic men and women claiming to speak for mumsnet. I even avoided coming on here for a long time because I hate the hostile environment towards trans people it seemed to have become. I'm sure lots of transmen & transwomen out there will be fantastic parents and they shouldn't feel alienated they should feel welcome to ask the advice of so many great parents.

Sorry to ramble but I came back online recently and decided to check this out as it was an active thread about trans people yet again but pleasantly surprised you took a stand against trans hate good on you MNHQ.

OnTheList · 30/04/2018 16:48

Making them feel excluded from an inclusionary, for everyone event, kind of is discriminating against them though.

Id it really excluding someone, to ask them to correctly identify their sex?

Though, from the other thread, it seems they ask for 'gender', which is problematic in itself as it makes no sense at all to record gender.

While we split athletes and such by sex, it makes no sense to...not split them by sex in some cases. Same as the sex segregation thing, if its been deemed necessary, then it again makes no sense to say that its not necessary if the person just says they are the opposite sex (with no changes, I do personally think transitioned transsexuals are a different kettle of fish, so to speak)

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 16:47

"I very clearly asked for a reasoned argument, ideally evidence. By that I don't mean that you should have a study, I mean that you should be able to explain the chain of events through which girls become disengaged with sport so that each part can be discussed."

I'm sorry, I think I missed the part where anyone here volunteered to be your research assistant?

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 16:47

By the way, no one is suggesting that they shouldn't participate. Just that they shouldn't do it in the wrong sex class.

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 16:47

Making them feel excluded from an inclusionary, for everyone event, kind of is discriminating against them though.

How is saying please classify yourself as assisted so that other participants can accurately measure their performance against the average for their sex and age excluding them?

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 16:45

Making them feel excluded from an inclusionary, for everyone event, kind of is discriminating against them though.

But you think it's ok to "discriminate" when it's a competition?

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 16:45

we have a well established, fair method of dividing people into categories for certain sports. If you wish to change that the onus should be on you to explain why, and how fairness is retained.

Yes. Your move.

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 16:44

they don't have an attempted suicide rate of 40%, so this is not an area where I personally am comfortable coming to hasty judgements.

That is not a reliable statistic for several reasons which have been frequently discussed here.

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