Trans Park Run Deletion

No one is suggesting that trans women shouldn’t be allowed to take part in Parkrun

The debate is about how they are classified in the results

Yes. ^^This.

No one is suggesting that trans women shouldn’t be allowed to take part in Parkrun

The debate is about how they are classified in the results

Isolating trans girls from cis girls based on apparent speculation (there's still not one shred of pro-segregation evidence in this thread) is not evidence-based policymaking

So you disagree with sex segregation all together then I take it? Everything should be unisex?

@richmarr

No not really. You were the one demanding evidence from others but it turns out you don't actually have any evidence to back up your assertions.

Before I read these reports, based on your description of them, am I right in thinking they do not address the impact of not participating in sports in the category of the other sex as an impact on suicide rates? Given this was the basis of your earlier posts, what is the significance of these reports on your earlier claims?

Don't forget, you are the one calling for evidence. I'm just asking you for your evidence.

So if you are now not talking about suicide rates, can you elucidate your actual point about the harm that might be caused by trans identified males not being able to participate in sport as women? Can you also please expand on why you are bringing in "vulnerable children" when the discussion has been about trans identified adult males in women's sport?

And further, what do you mean by "Just stop"? Are you suggesting that we don't ask you further questions about your highly questionable call for evidence because it turns out your seemingly reasonable call for evidence can't be backed up by evidence that supports your own arguments?

@FloraFox

Your argument seems to be, "this study isn't perfect [no study ever is] therefore it's fine to isolate trans kids, but I don't want to isolate trans kids, but really I do. Nobody here is transphobic, we just don't want to treat trans people in the way they want to be treated and don't want them to touch our bathrooms".

Here are some stats for you from a different survey, this time from the UK.

• "51% bullied at school for being trans"
• "9% of trans kids subject to death threats at school"
• "84% of trans kids have self-harmed"
• "2 in 5 have tried to take their own life"
• "Just 41% report that their schools say transphobic bullying is wrong"
• "68% report that school staff only ‘sometimes’ or ‘never’ challenge transphobic language when they hear it"

(www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/the_school_report_2017.pdf)

This one is from a multi-phase study over 5 years including in-depth interviews, and includes dozens of citations of peer reviewed studies if you like to get nitty gritty with small print:

• "48% of trans young people had made at least one suicide attempt"
• "at higher risk of physical, emotional and sexual violence compared to heterosexuals, with increased risk of suicide ideation and attempts"
• "increased prevalence of abuse, discrimination and victimisation, as well as social isolation in these young people"
• "Two studies found that having greater optimism and hope helped transgender people become more resilient"

(www.queerfutures.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/RARE_Research_Report_PACE_2015.pdf)

These are the vulnerable children you and others in this thread seem to be actively stirring up sentiment to further isolate.

Just stop.

@Albadross

Yes, there are some cases where accessibility or other kinds of inclusion are difficult. In this case, letting someone run is not difficult. Isolating trans girls from cis girls based on apparent speculation (there's still not one shred of pro-segregation evidence in this thread) is not evidence-based policymaking.

If park run wasn’t timed I wouldn’t bother getting up every Saturday to go to a park run. I enjoy the individual competiveness and trying to beat my personal times. I compare my times to other females in my age group,

Thank you Flora. Great post.

@Richmarr we cannot all be included in everything all the time. As long as other opportunities are provided, then it's completely ok to exclude some groups for a legitimate aim.

Those of us with disabilities are excluded from many things because we are a minority (but actually massively more in number than trans people and also with high rates of mental illness). We have fought for accessible spaces, not to make all the spaces accessible, but at least one. We accept that since most people don't need accessible spaces, this is a compromise.

Including groups where it may cause a problem for others (and I don't mean just an attitudinal one) causes damage to both groups and further reinforces any divide. I get fed up with seeing people talking about 'inclusion' as though we should all be able to do everything we want to anytime we want to, it's totally unrealistic and will never happen as long as we remain humans who naturally have strengths and weaknesses.

There are extremely good reasons why we have sex segregation for females, and most people understand and accept that, including trans people. As soon as you begin to quash these conversations, you are on a slippery slope. When there is sound reasoning behind limits, limits should remain there. That's what reasonableness is.

How many of those other runs are free to participate in and within walking distance of the inner city? For some people,this may be their only opportunity to race. Not everyone has access to all these so called opportunities.

One thing I noticed on the park run thread was that quite a few posters said that the times and rankings mattered to them or to people they know. These opinions were dismissed, minimised, or called out as being totally wrong by other posters as this is apparently not in the spirit of park run, thus no one should care or has a right to care whether they are bumped down a place or two.

This is dismissing a significant number of women's opinions. Who is it who benefits from this?

@richmarr

The limitations set out by the authors note that the questionnaire only asked a single question: “have you ever attempted suicide?” The authors note that using this question alone in surveys without probing for intent to die (as opposed to self harm) can inflate the percentage of affirmative responses by almost 50%.

The survey did not explore mental health status and history which are important risk factors for suicide. The authors note this “significantly limited our ability to identify the pathways to suicidal behavior”.

The authors note that it is unclear how representative the respondents are of the overall US transgender GNC adult population.

The survey lacks information about completed suicide. The authors note the clear demographic differences between suicide attempters and those who die by suicide (e.g. 80% of suicide deaths are by men whereas 75% of suicide attempts are by women) and that we should be especially careful not to extrapolate findings about suicide attempts among transgender adults to imply conclusions about competed suicide in that populations.

The discrimination reported by the respondents was related to housing, work, family and friends, medical care, law enforcement and bullying in school. No-one was asked about being allowed to participate in sport as the opposite sex.

I don’t think there is anyone on these boards who think that it should be okay to discriminate against people on the basis of them being trans identified but that does not mean they need to be treated as a member of the opposite sex for all purposes and regardless of whether they have taken any steps to transition.

So you haven't presented any evidence that there is any harm arising from an inability to participate in sports as a member of the opposite sex.

Sorry if any remarks I made had anything to do with this.

most events have a volunteer tail walker whose job it is to come in last

That sounds like my kinda job

Thank you cady

onthlist our local park run is along the seafront...would be dead easy to nip into the cafe when you'd had enough maybe your one is similar

This is a highly vulnerable group who deserve more empathy than they seem to be getting in this thread

Read the limitations section in that study. They are quite honestly laid out.

FloraFox, this study showed a huge increase in the attempted suicide rate amongst those who experienced rejection or discrimination, e.g. over 50% of those that experienced discrimination at work attempted suicide. I'm not aware of direct data on this exact situation, but I would expect being branded as non-female and non-conforming in a public sphere that you care about would fit under that category.

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

This is a highly vulnerable group who deserve more empathy than they seem to be getting in this thread. And I'm not proposing anything, other than that these people not be made to feel unwelcome at social events like ParkRun.

SardineReturns, why would I google whether girls are girls are disengaging from sport for other reasons when that's not at issue? The connection between trans kids and girls disengagement is the issue. Sure, there are a variety of reasons why young girls disengage with sport.

I'm not disputing that girls are disengaging or that something should be done about it. I'm disputing that a very vulnerable group should be made to feel even more isolated and othered simply because you suspect that they will be a problem for young girls engagement. If you have evidence to make it more than a suspicion, great. I've looked, and I haven't found any. Since you're making concrete claims it's reasonable for me to ask what makes you so certain.

Personally my starting point (in lieu of better evidence) is that it will have a very small effect if there is one. Looking at the scale of the problem... last time I read a stat there were less than 200 such kids in London (total, not just M-F trans), that's less than a third of a kid per school. Assuming even 50% of were sporty enough to be at issue before they came out, and 50% of those were still comfortable competing publicly in gym kit after they came out... that's a very small number of kids that you're certain will have a significant effect on a very large number of girls... so certain you seem willing to risk an increase in the suicide rate among one of the most vulnerable groups in society. The stakes are not low.

I assume you're also personally campaigning on issues that are known to cause girls to disengage with sport, right? I'd love to hear about that. What other solutions to girls engagement have you tried before deciding to push for isolating trans kids?

I agree that parkrun is not a 'competition' as such, and that's one of the things I love about it. I have my own personal goal, and I challenge myself every time I run, but I don't particularly notice or care who's in front of me or behind. When I'm volunteering I applaud and encourage all runners from the fastest to the slowest, as do all the the other volunteers, and there's plenty of encouragement amongst runners out on the course.

But the parkrun website publishes all manner of data on fastest times, first finishers, age category records, top performances, an age graded 'league', etc. Why would they do that if people don't care where they finish compared to others? And then there's the the post-run emails... All I really want to know is my time and whether or not it's a PB. But the email includes details on where I finished overall, where I finished out of the female participants, and where I finished in my 'age category', which is also divided by sex (e.g. SM35-39, VW40-44). I don't go looking for that information, it's emailed directly to me. I actually quite like it as I find it motivates me; others may feel differently. (I wonder if it's an option to request not to receive the email if you really don't want to know your ranking?) So no, it's not a race or a competition, but it's disingenuous to claim that there's no competitive element to parkrun at all!

I would say go for it OnTheList. There are people of all ages and abilities, and most events have a volunteer tail walker whose job it is to come in last and to provide support to those at the back of the course if they need it. One week we had a lady who walked round chatting to the tail walker the whole way, taking close to an hour, and that was absolutely her right to do so. No one got even remotely annoyed or impatient, and there were plenty of people (volunteers and other runners) still about to welcome her at the finish. Everyone's got their own reasons for taking part, and hopefully you'll find that it's a great community to belong to!

Would I HAVE to finish it? I know they cannot force me to, but would I be made to feel really shit if I couldn't?

Absolutely not! Everyone would be happy to see you out there having a go.

*AngryAttackKittens

The willingness to handwave away concerns about competitiveness and fairness that surrounds this debate indicates a complete contempt for women's sport. If it was seen the same way men's sport is nobody would be arguing the need to define clear boundaries and make sure fair competition is possible.*

^ This x1000

Onthelist I really can't see anyone making you feel shit at all if you couldn't finish it.
It's always been really encouraging and friendly when I've been.
I'm one of the slower ones who takes ages to get round, and the tail runners/walkers are so encouraging and nice.
They'll encourage you, or chat to you, (or leave you alone if you prefer that)

It's like posting exam results, you can say it's not a competition all you want but there's no reason to put the rankings out there unless the idea is for people to look at them and compare their results to those of others.

If times and “leader boards” are published broken down by sex then it’s competitive to some extent and unfair for transwomen to compete in the women category.

I would also have concerns about self identifying transwomen participating in single sex womens sports/leisure activities.

Dislike it when MN take down whole threads rather than deleting posts.

Would I HAVE to finish it? I know they cannot force me to, but would I be made to feel really shit if I couldn't? My illness is kind of unpredictable and I can go from niggly pain to full on agony attacks within seconds and sometimes end up in A+E for IV morphine rather than my usual oramorph

I think I might try and persuade DH to do it. And maybe the kdis too. They are very young, but if you can just walk it then it should be fine.

At least something good has came out of these threads for me, anyway

Though I do agree, if its not meant to be competitive, why publish times and rankings. And why ask for peoples sex (or 'gender') if it doesn't matter. Same with ages. Seems a bit odd really, if its meant to be a fun thing and you only compete against yourself.

If they did have a fat category, it wouldn't be very sporting for 'skinny, fast' runners to put themselves in that category would it?

Exactly.

While Parkrun is fun and encourages everyone to run, it's a total lie to say it's not competitive. They publish weekly results, leader boards and age categories. If it was 'just for fun', why bother with all that?