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Original poster

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 11:38

I think that MNHQ shoukd be more transparent with their deletion messages

So

Deleted as we believe that this is a transphobic/homophobic/disabalist/ goady comment

Etc

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:37

It's you who doesn't get it. Would you like to explain what I'm missing exactly?

I have. Repeatedly. The whole bloody thread went poof minutes after your post on the last thread.
There's no point. You don't get it.I don't want the discussion to disappear again.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 11:36

Yes cady

We are not arguing Smile

But i dont think the entire thread shoukd be closed due to some deletions

And we know that some posts by some of the more vocal trans activist supporters have also been deleted and that posts quoting the dictionary and words such as 'yawn' have also been deleted

I am not happy with people inferring, implying or insinuating that all the deletions are down to transphobic posts

When it should again be fucking obvious that its not

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 11:34

It's you who doesn't get it. Would you like to explain what I'm missing exactly?

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:33

Except you did say that it was transphobic and got called out for this last night. By more than one poster.
No. I didn't. Put simply, as I've said it before in more detail, I said there is a way of saying it. You really, really don't get it,do you?

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 11:30

It's not transphobic to say not biologically a woman, as that is the truth.

Except you did say that it was transphobic and got called out for this last night. By more than one poster.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:29

I would have thought it was fucking obvious that some people have more of a problem with aspects of it than others

Well, quite. The ones that cross a line though are obviously not going to stand. That thread did cross it, in a way that hadn't before which'll be why all the deletions.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 11:26

The women will start xx leagues and they'll want in on that too. Nothing will ever be enough.

Yes. Anyone who genuinely doesn't believe this is extremely naive.

Lancelottie · 01/05/2018 11:24

I deliberately chose N as it could stand for a range of options including 'not declared'.

But I spend the day job asking people to clarify their meaning, so probably lack tact in these things.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 11:22

But males are not women, and gutting though that may be, it isn't transphobic to know it. Nor is it somehow women's fault.

This.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 11:21

Wonder why i put poster B first

Lancelottie · 01/05/2018 11:21

The T or N suggestion was mine, Cadyheron.

I didn't intend it to be transphobic, merely honest: I think it's probably cruel to make people declare themselves as the sex they long not to be, I don't think we can always count people as they sex they would prefer to be, and this is the only halfway house I can see.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 11:21

Its not rocket science

Poster B says they have no problem with transpeople cracking on with life

Poster A says they think transpeople shoukd be banned from...whatever

I would have thought it was fucking obvious that some people have more of a problem with aspects of it than others

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 11:21

Isn't it obvious from the deletion message that most of the thread was transphobic and that's why it was deleted? Mnhq can't say that though. The best they can do to avoid backlash from the posters on that thread is to say "not in the spirit".

No it isn't. It turned into a bun fight. They often delete those in AIBU etc. It's ok to believe trans identified males aren't women. Really it is.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:14

It feels very odd to be arguing for the other side doesnt it?

It really does, feels weird lol.

Posters on here say they have no problem with tw living under the radar getting on with their lives but that thread shows for some people, that is clearly untrue. Is certainly opened my eyes.

Yes,mine too. It's clear some really do have a problem with all.

loudaloneknows · 01/05/2018 11:13

@CadyHeron Your post would also be considered transphobic. In a recent debate I took part in, the argument was that there has been no 'transition' as they have always been women, just incorrectly assigned at birth.

Talking about the need to transition at all is transphobic.

BobbiBabbler · 01/05/2018 11:10

@CadyHeron

It feels very odd to be arguing for the other side doesnt it?

But i think its perfectly possible to accept that you can be gender critical whilst still respecting peoples choices where it doesnt actually matter. Nobody would answer me about "what if the transwoman has a GRC" and whether it would be illegal to categorise them as "other"when they're legally a woman. My point is, pick your battles. A transwoman giving her gender as female when asked in a non competitive inclusive setting is not the same as other "what abouts" that were presented.

Posters on here say they have no problem with tw living under the radar getting on with their lives but that thread shows for some people, that is clearly untrue. Is certainly opened my eyes.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 11:06

hat most of the thread was transphobic

Bollocks

There were definitely some posts that could certainly be considered transphobic but not most

The last few pages were the ones that caused the issue in my opinion

And i domt think the whole thread should have been deleted

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:02

I think some posters need to step back and have a look at their motivations because with some of the posts on that thread it'll give the TRAs plenty of ammo and also undermines the mnhq position of "we are not transphobic".

Exactly.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:00

Bobbibabbler - I agree. I've never took this stance on this subject before, but that thread did have a lot of transphobia in it.
It's not transphobic to say not biologically a woman, as that is the truth.
It is transphobic to want to exclude fully transitioned to women from a non competitive, open to everyone event, and say you're not one of us, you're a bloke, mark yourself different with a T or a N."

FloraFox · 01/05/2018 10:57

@richmarr

If you actually read what I wrote, you will see quite clearly that I have repeatedly asked for either evidence or a reasoned explanation of why it's reasonable to assume the effect on girls will be significant. It seems like you're expecting an army of sporty butch trans kids to come and push your daughters out of the medals and there's simply no reason to believe that will be the case.

And I asked you, as a person proposing a change in the way women's sports are classified, to provide evidence that exclusion is harming trans identified males and that including trans identified males in women's sport won't have a significant impact on girls.

You haven't provided any evidence of either of these points. I know you're not going to because there is none so I'll stop asking for evidence.

What, in your view, is an acceptable number of girls and women that will lose medals, sports scholarships, places on teams or an ability to participate in a limited entry competition to achieve this benefit for trans identified males?

My evidence on the other hand quite clearly describes both the extraordinary suffering that this group is already experiencing, and the fact that factors like hope of being happy or accepted as who they are have an effect on limiting self harm and suicide attempts.

This is false, the reports you have posted do not make the latter claim.

Publicly othering them as "not women" reduces that hope of acceptance. Exclusion is not just about not being allowed to physically run, it's also about not being allowed to feel part of the group they want to belong to.

Supporting that exclusion is both callous and transphobic.

Yes women have long been expected to prioritise the feelings of men over their ability to tell the truth and to expect privacy, dignity, safety and the opportunity to participate in public life. Meet the new boss...

Lancelottie · 01/05/2018 10:57

Publicly othering them as "not women" reduces that hope of acceptance. Exclusion is not just about not being allowed to physically run, it's also about not being allowed to feel part of the group they want to belong to. Supporting that exclusion is both callous and transphobic.

But males are not women, and gutting though that may be, it isn't transphobic to know it. Nor is it somehow women's fault.

I think you are massively trivialising transphobia - actual hate-filled jeering, physical violence, mocking of appearance, exclusion from jobs and housing - by using it to describe ordinary recognition of physical differences between males and females.

BobbiBabbler · 01/05/2018 10:56

Yes but that thread genuinely was transphobic. I'm one of you. I'm not a man or a tra. But i can still see that that thread was transphobic. When i tried to present an opposite view, i got accused of all sorts. I think some posters need to step back and have a look at their motivations because with some of the posts on that thread it'll give the TRAs plenty of ammo and also undermines the mnhq position of "we are not transphobic".

MargeH · 01/05/2018 10:52

it's also about not being allowed to feel part of the group they want to belong to.

That happens to non-trans people too, all the time. It's called real life. Not being one of the cool kids at school. Not being one of the hot girls the boys fancy. Or one of the hot boys the girls fancy. Not being a MILF.

Not being chosen for the hockey/ football team. Not singing well enough to join the choir. Not passing the audition for Britain's Got Talent. Not being able to have a child. Not having kind parents. Not having a roof over your head or enough food on the table. Not responding to treatment for a serious disease.

Real life sucks. And in comparison to some of the above, being misgendered seems pretty trivial.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 01/05/2018 10:43

Most of human life is now transphobic bobbibabbler