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Original poster

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 12:29

In a competitive race, you'd have a point.

So "transphobia" (your definition) and not being inclusive of trans identified males could be considered justifiable then? How does that work?

TERFragetteCity · 01/05/2018 12:29

And then there's that "Trans Crime" website, which is possibly the most abhorrent thing I can imagine.

More abhorrent than terfisaslur.com/ ???

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 12:27

If you can't see that, maybe you're one of the ones who needs to take a step back and look at what you're saying and what it might do to mumsnets reputation

I do not agree that the whole thread was transphobic

Some comments definitely...some posters....maybe

The whole thread, no

I dont need to take a step back

I just dislike exaggeration when its being used as a fact

There were 'logically' non transphobic posts on that thread

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 12:27

I'd say more people disagreed with you than agreed with you. Certainly 50/50.

TERFragetteCity · 01/05/2018 12:27

Have you ever been to parkrun? It is NOT a competition, fair play for what?

No, not a competition at all.

Oh hang on...

Trans Park Run Deletion
Lancelottie · 01/05/2018 12:27

This thread has reminded me that I haven't been to ParkRun for ages. Time to get the trainers out.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 12:26

We had this conversation repeatedly on the other thread. As you know.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 12:24

erishgal Have you ever been to parkrun? It is NOT a competition, fair play for what? Everyone's on an equal playing field. If you feel the need to compete and think others are being "unfair", it's probably not the best place for you (general you) to run.
In a competitive race, you'd have a point.

Pratchet · 01/05/2018 12:23

Transcrime is a good website. No one else is counting.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 12:23

which is possibly the most abhorrent thing I can imagine

I'm so glad you put possibly in there

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 12:22

Bobbybabbler, agree.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 12:21

It isn't transphobic to say that decent people play by the rules of fair play and consider others.

CindyLouWhoo · 01/05/2018 12:20

Another voice calling bullshit on the deletion of that thread. Poorly played MNHQ.

BobbiBabbler · 01/05/2018 12:15

I know very well that man cannot physically become a woman. My issue is with self id and TRAs. There's no harm in certain instances in respecting that someone can be allowed to call themselves a woman if they want to (like, i dunno.. if they've got a grc?) Or at a parkrun for instance where it is not a competition and the only victim in this case was the OPs pride because the trans woman came in front of her when the trans woman probably didn't even know that the OP was treating it as a competition. If you want rules and regulations about categories then parkrun probably isn't for you.

The cheating accusations were rife throughout the thread pretty much from the front page by the way. What exactly do you think would happen if Mumsnet HQ deleted a thread stating that it was transphobic? You'd get another one of these threads where everybody who posted on the first one what arguing that it wasn't transphobic and why. Except that it was. If you can't see that, maybe you're one of the ones who needs to take a step back and look at what you're saying and what it might do to mumsnets reputation.

Lancelottie · 01/05/2018 12:14

I can see it would stir up that emotion, Rat, sorry. But most of the time, sex and/or gender don't need to be declared anyway. I'm not suggesting anyone stamp it on their forehead, but that where neither M nor F is appropriate, a third option should be available.

Marking your run entry as N could mean 'trans' or any other reason for 'prefer not to say - please just give me the time, and not set it against either sex'.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 01/05/2018 12:10

Having a T category is now a requirement in equalities monitoring. In one situation it's absolutely mandatory for inclusion and in another you are a nazi.

Once you've sorted out the rules, let us all know.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 12:09

Was degenerating before that but that probably just sealed it as it was out and out blatant.

No it was not. Stop misrepresenting me.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 12:07

And then there's that "Trans Crime" website, which is possibly the most abhorrent thing I can imagine...

We are constantly asked to provide evidence that trans identified males have ever hurt women. So we do, and yet that's "abhorrent".

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 12:05

have. Repeatedly. The whole bloody thread went poof minutes after your post on the last thread.
There's no point. You don't get it.I don't want the discussion to disappear again.

Just stop it. What I said was perfectly reasonable.

RatRolyPoly · 01/05/2018 11:58

I will say that undoubtedly that's an extreme reaction, hoever it will be there lurking in the public consciousness.

Probably doesn't help that I've seen people linking to Breitbart and "Eagle Rising" to back up their arguments. And then there's that "Trans Crime" website, which is possibly the most abhorrent thing I can imagine...

Really pleased to see posters drawing their own lines in the sand though; I find that reassuring.

RatRolyPoly · 01/05/2018 11:47

The T or N suggestion was mine, Cadyheron.

Oh my god Lancelottie did you really suggest that?? I missed it. I have an almost visceral reaction to the idea of someone identifying themselves in this way; maybe they should also stitch a sign onto their clothing - some sort of symbol - so that we all know they're trans, all of the time....

I'm sure you didn't mean anything quite that sinister, but my family are Poles and the second world war still feels very, very recent to us. And deeply traumatic. The very idea of marking someone's race entry with an identifying mark is so worryingly reminiscent to me that I can't even consider in without extreme emotion.

No doubt I'm not the only one who would react in this way.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:45

As I said, it was all going downhill before, the cheating conversation from some will have been due to it as well.
It didn't help matters.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 01/05/2018 11:42

The thread didn't go poof because of Ereshkigal's last post.

There was another conversation going on that was the likely cause, about cheating which is what mumsnet said.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:41

Not altogether, to be fair. Was degenerating before that but that probably just sealed it as it was out and out blatant.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 11:40

t.I don't want the discussion to disappear again

I doubt very much that it was down to erishkigal