Trans Park Run Deletion

@FloraFox I think that if that is how you took my post then there is nothing I can do to change that. All I can say is that I do have a lot of empathy for the situation because as I addressed in my followup message to others, I think that the topic is such a delicate one. All I have tried to put across was that if I was to put myself in to a group of natal woman around the same age and build as myself.. that aside from the lung and heart issue, I think that many of the other factors at this point around physiological advantage are few and far between. I am not however closed off to discussion as to why this is not the case? But instead you chose to be combative..

@Alienspaceship You chose to take it that way, that was not my intent. I was simply saying that if we are talking about 10% differences, once you add the experience I have had in change of what I remembered my ability being like, that 10% would likely shrink further.. I can't be sorry for you choosing to take what I said in the darkest shade possible but But I can assure you it is not what I intended. I would be happy to try and reword it for you?

@M0RVEN And whilst I have not been raped or sexually assaulted what gives you the right to have assumed I had not been? I have had the good fortune of not being subjected to those horrific acts and would not wish them on anyone but I have been touched up and groped, jeered at, catcalled, you name it. many times both before and after transitioning. Frankly I find it disgusting that you would imply that it would not have happened to me. Trans or Cis.

Part of the reason I run later at night is because it is darker. You might think 'well why would you take that risk' and the answer is simply because it is harder to tell that I am not any other regular cis female out for a run. However that does not mean that I ever felt safe. like you said, constantly re-evaluating the situation and I am not just talking about running.

I feel at risk every single time I leave the house. It is the first thing I think about when I reach for my front door; 'is today going to be the day that some group of upstarts realises I am trans and decides to beat me up or worse'. How about YOU have some empathy for the fact that trans people have to consider the exact same things that many cis women also have to do. Believe me I have plenty of empathy for cis woman and the risk of being attacked (sexually or otherwise) because I also have to worry about those things.

All I was trying to convey is that it took me a LONG time to get over my fear of wearing female exercise gear because it made me feel more exposed and vulnerable than then I had my makeup applied and could compensate for typically male traits my body/face does have. I was not trying to belittle cis women in any way. Simply that for me, I was proud of myself.

@MargeH - Yourself included I would presume. Do you think I walk around the store room at work with my dress hitched up staring at myself? Get over yourself. If you had read my comment thoroughly I acknowledged that biologically I am male but that I am a woman AND a trans woman. Meaning that colloquially speaking I regard myself as a woman but however more specifically a trans woman because unfortunately I was born with the wrong plumbing. Thanks for the reminder. :)

@jellyfrizz- Thank you for having a more tempered and thoughtful response than some of the others, I was not even going to reply again until I saw some of the other replies.

I think that having other boxes when the incidence rate of trans people would be pointless. As I mentioned, assuming 400 people and an incidence rate of 0.5% and then making an assumption that the other trans person was a trans man... that means I would be singling myself out to compete with exactly no one else. I would come first and last in my 'category'. As I mentioned in my other message, I think that at a pro level.. other considerations need to be made and I am glad that professional sporting bodies have the ability to make a judgement call on whether or not a person can compete.

@CadyHeron - Thank you for the support. :)

Actually I think Cady is half right - some runners do it for the camaraderie and support, rather than competitively. Doesn't mean it is fair for them to fuck up the stats for those that are competitive though.

Shame you've ignored all the posts talking directly to Lucy ratroly

Cady can you please stop telling me and others that park run isn’t competitive. It is a timed 5k event - of course it is competitive otherwise why time the run? Let’s all just run round a park instead and not time it - no thanks and I think all men will opt out and a lot of women will too. Blimey even my teenage kids have to beat me and their mates at parkrun.

ratrolypoly I agree. It's a personal attack.

Narcissistic supply alert?

Is that code for "pssst, stop talking to the transwoman, you'll encourage her to stay!"?

Christ, it's like being at school. And not in a good way.

At my local park run, the fastest woman comes in at 19th. She has done for ages. Imagine a new trans woman runner joining and just destroying her record, just to satisfy some internal dialogue. It would be bloody shit and cruel.

And yet that's what being proposed. Let's shit on women's achievements because men who feel like women are more important.

Lucy - you're welcome at parkrun obviously. You could record your gender as male, given that PR state: "Along with Date of Birth, we ask for your gender to categorise our results correctly (by sex and age)."

so they mean sex rather than gender. Your sex is male, not female.

Run as far and as fast as you can. But compete against males, not females. And if that means you're a bit shit and bottom of the heap, then deal with it. Don't make women feel a bit shit and bottom of the heap by identifying as female.

I remember mother in laws being the butt of every joke. I seriously don't remember "trannies" as you say being demonised. In fact if you weren't cross dressing you weren't welcome in most London clubs in the 80s!

teens, trans people (or trannies as they were pretty much always referred to as at the time) were the butt of every joke, demonised, viewed as being subhuman.

I hear that a lot but I don't remember it at all. I used to work in selfridges bra dept in the early eighties and we had many trans women coming in wanting bras. We always treated them with respect and felt quite kindly towards them. And cross dressing is a great British institution!

Narcissistic supply alert?

You can transition and take hormones to become female though.

No, you can't.

She has every bloody right to tick the woman box in that sense in a non competitive inclusive run.

The box says female, not woman. And yes, as much right as anyone has; it's based on trust.

I have many times. Yes there are people that don't care about their times but a huge amount of 30 something men people who do!

I think it is absolutely awful that we now live in a society where trans people are scared to be themselves

I agree Lucy. I think trans women should be absolutely accepted as they are. It shouldn't be something people feel they need to be ashamed as or hide.

Cady

Taking hormones doesn't make you female. Transwomen will always have XY chromosomes.

It might be good if ParkRun offered all runners the option of not having their stats published or included in the analysis.

Yes I've been to several. Truthfully. And I know how proud people can be to get at the top or near the top of their group. And how proud their families are.

After reading this thread and it's near identical predecessor, I got out my trainers and went for a run after work. I'm planning on joining my local parkrun after a couple of weeks of stealth training.

#slightlymissingpoint

Park Run is competitive. There are rankings. People care about their ranking. It's a human thing to do.

FFS!!

Have you actually been to one? Truthfully?

Lucy isn't a woman though. Why dies Lucy need to record their time as a woman? There's no requirement to do that

Holy moly I was not expecting so many replies, this might take a while to reply (I also need to go for a run tonight - lol) But I will do my best.

Just also want to say that I am happy to be here and than you for the warm welcome I have received thus far.

@Lancelottie My main problem with a 'third category' is that is it very much not good enough. You would end up with trans men (some of which would be using testosterone and trans women some of whom would be also on HRT, and it just would not really be a good way to do it. for a start, the approach just dumps all trans people in to one bucket and says 'get on with it, we don't care that you are potentially more akin to your acquired gender'. I do however appreciate that (particularly in the case of pre HRT trans women) you have the potential for serious ability skewing.. and for this reason and this reason alone I think that it is right that professional sporting bodies can discriminate based on birth sex but ONLY where it is deemed that the trans individual truly does have an unfair advantage and this is to be determined on a case by case basis. BUT for amateur stuff?? No. No one should have to 'out' themselves. But at professional levels where it is careers and money involved.. totally but only if the reasoning is policy and process driven with strict and robust measures in place to ensure fairness truly is the end goal.

I am sorry if that is not a satisfactory answer.. I think it is was pretty poorly worded..

@AncientLights - Thank you for the warm welcome! And yes... I would love a good opportunity to discuss it as I will be honest, I think my understanding of everything that has happened with it is very superficial..

@CadyHeron - Thank you! It was a lovely response and I will be honest it made me realise how ridiculous it was to worry in the first place. Since coming out and transitioning I have moved on in many ways but also trying to make new friendship groups. Using 'Meetups' has been my main way of finding stuff to do and in pretty much every case, I have sent a prefacing message asking if the group is inclusive of trans people and I think that is such a sad thing to have to do but the email I got back from Parkrun has made me realise I need to stop caring what people think. I am a human being and a good person and with ANY social activity that is what should matter. Not what is or isn't between my legs or whether I am XX or XY.

@sanluca - Hello, thank you for the welcome, I think you have kind of hit the nail on the head in a way. The point is that you cannot tell someone's ability by looking at them so why be prejudice? First of all though, the only person I compete with when I run is myself. I might sprint to the finish line and overtake a couple people, but this is not to beat anyone other than myself from previous runs and to push myself. I am not competing with other people, it is a fun run not a bonafide race. The timings and stats that Parkrun provides are for reference only IMO.

There are so many factors that influence a persons ability. However when we are talking about a margin of 10% in non-HRT augmented people, should we really be discounting the 90% that is the effort that person exerts and the training they have put in to it? Especially when like I mentioned in my original post, having been on HRT for the last 8 and a bit months, as well as having basically not actively exercised for 6 years I am at no advantage really and like I said there are even aspects of having already been through male puberty that are potentially a serious detriment.

Ultimately there are many ways someone might be born with a natural born advantage over someone else. One of my house mates (natal female) is 4 years older than me but she can run circles around me in cross country... I do not however feel badly done to, I put it down to the training and effort and work she has put in to herself.

I do think that you are right in the sense of discussion but I think your 'us and them' approach to the topic is a little rigid. Especially considering the level of running being discussed. I think I came around 65th as far as female ranking is concerned. Out of 160 ish (I do not want to say too much as I believe these timings to be of public record?). I have seen it written many times on these forums that is is not the average trans woman that is the problem. And I would say that I am far from exceptional in any way. Plus... when you consider there were around 400 people at my parkrun... at an incidence of like 0.5% of the population (I know it is slightly higher than that but just for the purpose of my point) that means that statistically there would maybe have only been one other trans person there. Have we REALLY robbed anyone of anything?

Again, I think perhaps I am waffling and not replying very well.. I do want to say that I would in no way want you to feel that I am trying to bully my thoughts on to you or to strip away importance through any means of what you are saying. Obviously trans people are a very diverse bunch and I think that the pre/post HRT issue to me is the biggest factor... but I am not sure that telling a trans person they need to compete with their birth sex is right. Even if competing was the theme, It would be heartless when all trans people (I think) truly want is to be accepted within either a sisterhood or brotherhood (I can smell the cheese from just typing it.. sorry..) and with cis women saying 'well we don't want you' and pushing us to the cis men who then go 'well we don't want you either' it just sets a tone of hopelessness.

@Scabbersley - Thank you! If I poorly worded that I apologise, I did not mean to imply that all natal women show a lack of empathy.. It is just from what I have seen and read think that a lot of the time, loose fingers type without thinking about the effect those words may have on people.. I mean.. part of the reason I transitioned at 27 is because when I was younger, early teens, trans people (or trannies as they were pretty much always referred to as at the time) were the butt of every joke, demonised, viewed as being subhuman.. So I hid.. Whenever I read TIM or TIF for example, though accurate in their definition, are lacking in empathy. I think a lot of people forget that trans people are exactly that... people.. I do not see the need for callous language when trans man and trans woman at the very least conveys the same information but in a more sensitive and thoughtful way. Though with a couple bad eggs I can see the defensive action as understandable I think it is dangerous. I feel like I have well and truly gone off topic now.. I am sure we will get the chance to have a more centred conversation some time in another thread. :)

@Tinycitrus - Hello!! I think this is a question I can get back on topic with!! I completely understand the worry. I will address your final point first; I think it is absolutely awful that we now live in a society where trans people are scared to be themselves but equally... I think it is a crying shame that cis people (I hate using it in this context..) are scared to ask questions. Personally I want people to ask me questions because I think that the only way these important discussions will happen is once there is a mutual level of understanding because I think a lot of the issues trans people face are just not understood by average people and as a result it breeds animosity through a lack of awareness..

I mean.. I was not particularly sporty as school, mainly because I was bullied by the people that played sports so I guess in a way it poisoned me against sports.. but if I am honest.. my answer to this is basically that if there were fewer obstacles in the way of affording trans kids the chance to use puberty blockers (not cross sex hormones) then there were would not be an issue? I think something many people forget is that puberty blockers are used on cis kids too if they start puberty too early. I am not going to go in to my beliefs as to why I think this should be the case as it is the wrong thread.. but if kids were able to hit that pause button then there would be no natal born advantage or disadvantage? So as far as keeping young natal girls engaged with sports is concerned (which I think is incredibly important) I genuinely believe that this is a case of where better policy for one group has a positive affect on another (the latter being young cis girls).

Happy to be messaged about this one if you would like to go in to it as it is something I believe in quite strongly.

@LangCleg - Hello :) Ultimately? Quite simply because I do not believe I was assisted. Like I said, I have lost a significant amount of muscle and yet retain a heavier frame.. not to mention the fact that I have to push harder and recover more slowly than before I was on hormones and younger. I do not feel that being born male has at this point given me any quantifiable advantage now that I have the hormone profile of a natal female and also probably only slightly more muscle but that is neither here nor there as there were plenty of (presumably) natal women at Parkrun who were much more in shape than I. Also without meaning to be pedantic but the tables are segregated by gender and not sex - which I believe is all part of them being inclusive.

@Thanksforthatamazingpost - Thank you! I look forward to having discussions in the future in the spirit of learning (two way street). :)

I apologise if people have said anything to me since I started typing this however I will have to read back later an reply haha.

Genuinely looking forward to having conversations about this and other topics though. Thank you for the warm welcome, I feel the nerves have subsided and you are all not as scary as I thought you might be. :p

No one has said Lucy wouldn't be welcome at a Parkrun. No one.

Really important post which inthink bears repeating

Especially for those lurkers with an already tenuous grasp of the truth

Park Run is competitive. There are rankings. People care about their ranking. It's a human thing to do.

FFS!!

No one has said Lucy wouldn't be welcome at a Parkrun. No one.

Only welcome if you say you're a man. Not one of us. Same thing.
Thank fuck parkrun are lovely and don't think the same as some on here.

It's inclusive. If you don't like that fact and want it to be, there's plenty of other runs that you can compete to your hearts content.

You genuinely don't see the contradiction in your sentence there do you? Nor do you care probably. Which is basically - women fuck off if you don't like being pushed down the rankings.

Same old same old.

What I don't agree with is you ticking a box that says female when you unequivocally say you are male

She said she was biologically male. Which is correct,as there is no way of changing yourself to biologically female.
You can transition and take hormones to become female though.
She has every bloody right to tick the woman box in that sense in a non competitive inclusive run.
Just like a transitioning to male should be able to tick the male box if they were in the process of fully transitioning too (not just self ID'ing in both cases.)
I find it really weird being on this "side" of the argument, but some of the comments on these threads are bloody staggering and are opening eyes.