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Original poster

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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MargeH · 01/05/2018 22:21

What I don't understand is why these people are not 'happy' with being a trans woman or trans man.

That is, ultimately, the solution, isn't it? And as I said earlier, none of us would have a problem with that. But that is a decision only they can make.

Ciao2Roma · 01/05/2018 22:18

I am very gender critical and against the blind following of self id etc. However, I can also see that there are people who feel they don't conform or identify with the gender roles assigned to their sex and I have masses of sympathy and empathy with this. What I don't understand is why these people are not 'happy' with being a trans woman or trans man. They can surely not believe that they have magically become the other sex, e.g. a biological female or male.
I am digressing though. I feel uneasy about picking on an trans individual who is brave enough to do the park run, he/she/they deserve their dignity protected. On the other hand it is frustrating for biological females aka women to be pushed back and their sporting effort reduced. I really don't know the answer to this conundrum.

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 22:13

She is excluded. That is wrong. Except in cases where it matters

It matters to women who want to see how they compare within their own age/sex category.

Or don't those women matter?

Lucy can run in Parkrun - she is not excluded.

MIdgebabe · 01/05/2018 22:10

There is no category for Lucy. She is excluded. That is wrong. Except in cases where it matters ( female open plan changing areas, competitive sport, rape crisis centres, equal pay) than neither sex nor gender identity should matter.

So don't make a deal out of it. Save your powder.

In this case no female is disadvantaged in any way but there is a chance , however small youbthink it is, that the trans person could be disadvantaged.

I don't understand being trans. I worry that it's people who are different thinking that there is something wrong with them rather than with society. But unless it directly affects my equality or safety then live and let live.

Lucy has never denied having a male body. She has never insisted she is the same a natal female. She would agree I think that she wouldn't expect to enter as a women in competitive sport without some questions being asked. Why cant she live unhindered by societal expectations just like we want to ?

Why should we force her to identify as a man in situations where sex / gender is Irrelevant?

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 22:04

Reindeers help santa

I WIN!!!!

Santa always wins

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 22:02

Anita Knight kicks ass.

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 22:01
Grin
Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 21:57

Oh

Well I'm not gonna lie anita

Thats come as something of a disappointment

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 21:55

I'm not really Anita, and I don't even know anyone called Victor.

MargeH · 01/05/2018 21:53

AnitaLovesVictor

That would be the honourable thing to do.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 21:51

My real name isn't Marge

I feel cheated Shock

Mine is actually Rufus

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 21:50

If a transwoman wants to enjoy parkrun, and be fair to women who would like to judge their times competitively, with their biological peers within the age/sex category - they can. The two are not mutually exclusive.

You can list yourself as 'assisted' and it wouldn't put you in any danger - but would alert that you are at an advantage (biological advantage of being born male - but without actually listing yourself as male iyswim).

There's a woman who does parkrun with her dog - literally pulled along on the lead by a husky Grin and marks herself as assisted.

MargeH · 01/05/2018 21:43

If Lucy doesn't want to be singled out or tracked via social media, then using another name would seem to be a sensible precaution, particularly as she is clearly fearful in some circumstances. What's so outrageous about that?

We were talking only a couple of weeks ago about how we should all be much more careful how much we reveal about ourselves online after the EH debacle. My real name isn't Marge.

Scabbersley · 01/05/2018 21:42

After the event when the roster is emailed, a group of transphobic degenerates looks for the 'girl' with M after her name and then tracks her down using facebook and other social media because they have her name

I don't believe this would ever ever happen

OrchidInTheSun · 01/05/2018 21:32

Um ... nope I don't see the difference. If some very unlikely transphobic aggressive peoke want to track you down, I can't imagine whether your times are recorded in the male or female category will make any difference at all. And you can use initials so there is no need for you to use a woman's name fir recording your times either. Piss poor argument

FloraFox · 01/05/2018 21:31

@BeUpStanding Grin

Why on earth should she enter under a different name ?

Why on earth should women accept males running in their categories? You seem to be suggesting this is all about safety but NatLuc isn't taking any steps to preserve NatLuc's safety as it seems to be the job for women to take care of that.

FloraFox · 01/05/2018 21:29

After the event when the roster is emailed, a group of transphobic degenerates looks for the 'girl' with M after her name and then tracks her down using facebook and other social media because they have her name.

If this is your concern, you should not use your name in public. A number of posters have explained why they think it is problematic for you and any trans identified male who may or may not have taken any steps to transition but you are not willing to take any steps to make a compromise. You're registering as a woman, wearing "women's running wear" (lots is very gender neutral) and using an obviously female name, but at the same time you're concerned that someone will look you up on the internet afterwards and track you down because there is an M by your name?

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 21:24

Well said, Midgebabe. It's akin to sticking a neon sign above your head, or marking/branding yourself different.
Just no.

BeUpStanding · 01/05/2018 21:24

@FloraFox Great minds X-post Smile

MIdgebabe · 01/05/2018 21:23

Why on earth should she enter under a different name ? Is she a slug that should hide herself away? She should live in constant fear?

BeUpStanding · 01/05/2018 21:23

TIF and TIM are not engineered to upset anyone.

FloraFox · 01/05/2018 21:22

At least cis is not engineered to upset anyone. TIF and TIM are.

TIF and TIM are not engineered to upset anyone, they are engineered to be careful and truthful with language.

MIdgebabe · 01/05/2018 21:20

Lucy is unlikely to be the best judge of whether she passes as female or not.

Whilst people seeing her may wonder , sticking a label publically on her would increase her risk. why not make it a big neon sign while you are at it? Whilst there is doubt in someone's mind that it could be a women, that will affect their behaviour. And making it public says to people " hey you have a right to know this person is trans" which highlights differences between trans and none trans, and anything that highlights differences between people unfortunately leads to increased violence between the groups of people.

FloraFox · 01/05/2018 21:20

NatLuc You don't have the data on your own body to support your statement. We know that men outperform women in most sports and we've seen many examples of men in their late 30s/40s/50s transitioning and winning sports events against women at the peak of their physical performance so I'm not going to put a lot of stock in your self-serving belief that you don't have an advantage over women.

NatLuc · 01/05/2018 21:19

Urgh ffs... right... last message...

@OrchidInTheSun - I said I do not think I pass 100% but that does not mean I think I am beyond hope of people not being able to tell.

But that is not why I am replying. There is a huge difference between me being at an event with 400 people and them seeing I am trans but my identity is concealed by the fact that my gender marker is set to my acquired gender and the following scenario:

Being at parkrun with 400 people and some people can read the fact I am trans. My gender marker is set to Male. After the event when the roster is emailed, a group of transphobic degenerates looks for the 'girl' with M after her name and then tracks her down using facebook and other social media because they have her name.

Right now, people can look at me all the want on the day but after the even, they have no way of tracking me down to my name because I have set myself as female. See the difference?