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Original poster

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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thebewilderness · 01/05/2018 23:04

MIdgebabe

Can you possibly be unaware of what a buzz word "special treatment" is when you are talking to people who are asking for fair and equitable treatment?

M0RVEN · 01/05/2018 23:02

Fairness to women doesn't seem to matter much to some people

Of course not Anita. It’s only natal men’s feelings that count and women just have to budge up.

Can I remind you of the rules of misogyny? Particularly relevant here are :

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

MIdgebabe · 01/05/2018 23:01

You can be competitive in parkrun if you want but you can't force anyone else to be competitive because it is totally expected that it is not about beating other people. it's purpose is not a race. Are you dliberatly rebranding it as a race to make it hard for a transperson?Which seems petty.

thebewilderness · 01/05/2018 23:00

Women should NOT have special treatment unless that is a proportionate response to a particular problem. The problem here is that some women want to use the published times to compare themselves to other women.

You mean the same way the men can?
All my life white men have claimed that women or POC or Lesbians or Gays wanting to be treated equitably is "special treatment".

Males measuring their speed against females instead of males is special treatment.

spontaneousgiventime · 01/05/2018 22:58

" I want " seems perfectly acceptable to everyone as long as women don't say it.

+1

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 22:57

" I want " seems perfectly acceptable to everyone as long as women don't say it.

MIdgebabe · 01/05/2018 22:57

Good grief. I don't think that men and women should compete in sport. But parkrun is not a competition. If you want a competition, enter a race.

And even then, if it's a event of hundreds or thousands of people, then unless someone was using a trans identity to gain advantage. I wouldn't care who they ran as. Why should I?

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 22:54

I really do think it's unfair to expect women to run against transwomen - who in general terms will be at a physiological advantage, even if taking sex hormones.

Why can't women be competitive at Parkrun? Is it not ladylike enough?

Fairness to women doesn't seem to matter much to some people.

MIdgebabe · 01/05/2018 22:52

It's a problem because it's putting your " I want " above someone elses " I want" without full consideration of the two different wants.

one person running as f instead of male who finishes mid table is not preventing yourself from seeing how you do compared to z200 other women ...statistically the perturbation from one odd ball entry is irrelevant.

So isaying " want to compare myself and the transwomen makes that impossible " is a want that does not stand up to basic stats.

So why make someone feel bad about themselves just so you can have a marginally more accurate position?

spontaneousgiventime · 01/05/2018 22:52

It's funny how it's always trans women demanding entry into women's spaces isn't it? We never (or I haven't) heard of trans men doing the same (happy to be corrected). I suspect this is down to socialisation. Trans men taught not to make a fuss and to accept what they are told. Trans women taught that as men they hold all the rights.

Stuff that women (of the biological kind) might want to have something for themselves. We all have to bow to the patriarchy and validate feelings to the detriment of our sex!

ferntwist · 01/05/2018 22:49

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

MargeH · 01/05/2018 22:49

The problem is, where do you draw the line?

My line is women's sport should be XX chromosome-based, with possible allowances made for intersex individuals on a case by case basis. It really could be that simple.

M0RVEN · 01/05/2018 22:48

Of course, women and girls should be forced to compete against men and boys until they are at a high level. Then it can be separated by sex.

That’s makes total sense. I wonder why Sports England haven’t thought of that before. You should contact then with your genius idea Midgebaby.

Scabbersley · 01/05/2018 22:47

Parkrun results are categorised by age and sex

I can't believe people still aren't understanding this

Dozer · 01/05/2018 22:46

Parkrun is competitive.

MIdgebabe · 01/05/2018 22:44

the olympics is competitive sport which I have already said is different from a non competitive event. Women's events are a proportionate response to making high level sports inclusive, giving women a chance to win and hopefully encouraging women to take part in sport.

Scabbersley · 01/05/2018 22:43

he problem here is that some women want to use the published times to compare themselves to other women

Why is that a 'problem "? My Parkrun results have age and sex records, so clearly they realise that some people enjoy the competitive element

CoteDAzur · 01/05/2018 22:40

Midge - Do you know why there is such a thing as women's sport? At the Olympic Games, for example?

Hint: It's not because women are demanding "special treatment".

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 22:39

don't want to be constantly reminding the world of my sex, saying that we need special catagories all the time

Aaahhhh

I understand

CoteDAzur · 01/05/2018 22:38

"why these people are not 'happy' with being a trans woman or trans man... That is, ultimately, the solution, isn't it? And as I said earlier, none of us would have a problem with that. But that is a decision only they can make."

Why? Why does the world have to wait for them to come to grip with reality?

When DD says she is a woman, I say "No darling, you are a girl. You need to be an adult to be a woman. Because Woman = Adult human female".

So why can't I tell transwomen who say they are women, "Sorry but no. You need to be female* to be a woman. Because Woman = Adult human female"?

Yes biologically* female, since there is no other way to be female but biologically.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 22:38

thebewilderness

I'm so ashamed Sad

MIdgebabe · 01/05/2018 22:31

All people matter.

Women should NOT have special treatment unless that is a proportionate response to a particular problem. The problem here is that some women want to use the published times to compare themselves to other women. They want to push transwomen to change their name and run as a man so that they can do that. That is not proportionate. Your effort or achievements in parkrun are not conditional on anyone else's achievements,

Partly because if you always want women to have special treatment you will make it impossible for women to be treated as a person first. I want to be treated as a person whose capabilities are not defined by her sex. I don't want to be constantly reminding the world of my sex, saying that we need special catagories all the time.

Ciao2Roma · 01/05/2018 22:30

That is, ultimately, the solution, isn't it?
I believe it is. It would celebrate diversity, we could all play around with gender identity and express ourselves safe in the knowledge that biological females' rights are protected where needed, trans people feel safe and valued based on their actions, not how they present, children wouldn't need to feel pressure into taking damaging hormones. Loads of spaces in society are mixed sex and everyone is welcome. A few designated spaces are single sex, some we might do without but others are needed to ensure the safety of vulnerable individuals. Common sense can be applied and it has to be a bit of give and take. A biological female who ids as a trans man still need to be protected by law because of their reproductive system. This cannot be that difficult to organise.

What I disagree with is the move to make us all pretend that men are suddenly real women and vv. I feel that that's a slippery and dangerous slope. What else will the public be arm twisted into accepting against their better judgement?

thebewilderness · 01/05/2018 22:28

I am shocked and dismayed that your name is not Rufus and I begin to suspect you may not be a deer.
I live in The Bewilderness, but I do not identify as a house.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 22:22

Midgebabe- agree with everything in your last post. Well said.