Trans Park Run Deletion

Do what women did, organise they're own events instead of appropriating women's spaces - simple

At the risk of sounding like a broken record there are nooooo women's places to take at parkrun. It's inclusive for everyone and they've obviously said as much.

FFS THEIR own.

*there own, not they're.

You make a really good point. Where are you supposed to go?

Do what women did, organise they're own events instead of appropriating women's spaces - simple.

It's like you are looking for trouble
You have ticked every homophobic racist statement used against people over the years who request fair and equitable treatment.

Don't you think that the if I competed as a male then the bloke behind me in the roster is doing to feel pissed that he was beaten by a 'light on her feet due to less muscle' tranny if he was so competitively driven? So tell me, when the incidence is so low for trans people how can I accurately measure myself against my closest trans peers? Hint - I cant. Natal females around my age and build are my closest peers.

You make a really good point. Where are you supposed to go? Some women - "not one of us, go away." Some butch men thinking- "FFS, how am I being overtaken by a trans?"

Marking out as different in separate categories not the way to go about it either though as leaving wide open for abuse.
Marking out people as different in the past has worked wonders, and not othering at all, after all.....

I also do not see the problem with me competing as a woman in amongst 200 other amateur female runners.

Well you wouldn't would you. You were socialised to believe men got what they want and women can 'sling their hook' when it comes to telling men they're wrong. You say you were not socialised fully as a boy, I call BS. Any male born child is socialised as male, if not within the family then by society. Your actions along with your words speak volumes about your socialisation. You'll never agree with this because you don't see it, and that is the difference between men and women.

One thing you forget, we are surrounded by men all the time, we see the difference.

"I am biologically male.

I am a trans woman.

But I am also a woman."

I don't mean to be rude - but are you really thinking it's reasonable to claim all three of those? If you're bio male, a TW and also a woman - then what am I? (please don't say cis - that is a made up word I find offensive).

This is what women mean when we speak of our erasure. It's like women don't count any more - we can't even have our piddly 'sex and age' category in parkrun without being told we're unreasonable.

FloraFox referring to your comment on page 17, so you are telling me that deliberately reminding a trans person that they are born incorrectly in a way that brands them as mentally ill is carefully conveying the truth?
I did not read past this shockingly dishonest opening salvo, where you put words in a woman's mouth in order to shame her for them.

Good grief, I begin to think that many people here have never experianced real discrimination if they are willing to get in such a paddy over one transwomen running in a non competitive event.

Sorry I don't know of special connotations around the phrase " special treatment" ...sorry if my choice of words has not helped

People who have experienced "real discrimination" know exactly what it means to ask for fair and equitable treatment and be told they are demanding "special treatment".

If you think this is so unimportant why exactly are you here arguing against fair and equitable treatment?

@FloraFox referring to your comment on page 17, so you are telling me that deliberately reminding a trans person that they are born incorrectly in a way that brands them as mentally ill is carefully conveying the truth?

In contrast, referring to someone as a trans man or trans woman is at least giving them the respect that they deserve by referring to them as the gender they should have been/are striving to attain the recognition for (you know.... that certificate many of you seem to despise even has the 'R' word in it). It conveys empathy for the shitty situation that trans people are in. But hey, as I have stated I am not an active TRA. I am just sick of reading thread after thread referring to me as a sexual predator.

A few have seen asked 'why can't these transgenders be happy with themselves and refer to themselves as TRANS men and TRANS women' I am happy with myself. As I have said:

I am biologically male.

I am a trans woman.

But I am also a woman. My experience might be different to a traditional woman but that does not mean that my experience is any less important. It is certainly is not more important either.

Was I 'socialised' as a male? Well it was attempted. I certainly resisted it the whole way. Do I think that maybe some of it managed to seep its way in? Absolutely. I don't know a single person male or female at birth that has not taken on bad social traits of male and female socialisation. Just reading some of the messages on MN I can see that many people have absorbed some toxic maleness. But see this is where the whole socialisation theory breaks down, everyone is a mixture of experiences. I spent most of my childhood with my grandparents rather than my parents (who are incredibly transphobic and whom I have not spoken to since I came out) and my grandmother encouraged me to be myself. My aunt told me that 'whilst she she was not expecting it, it makes complete sense as she and the rest of the family apart from my parents knew something was different'. It was my father who tried to force his masculine 'men should be this way' in to me and it just did not work.

I am happy. Immeasurably more so than when I was hiding and living as a male. But I also do not see the problem with me competing as a woman in amongst 200 other amateur female runners. I have already conceded that professionally speaking I think there should be the ability to discriminate based on fairness. Don't you think that the if I competed as a male then the bloke behind me in the roster is doing to feel pissed that he was beaten by a 'light on her feet due to less muscle' tranny if he was so competitively driven? So tell me, when the incidence is so low for trans people how can I accurately measure myself against my closest trans peers? Hint - I cant. Natal females around my age and build are my closest peers.

As for the whole 'gender neutral clothing' to 'conceal' myself; I transitioned so I didn't have to keep concealing myself. That is a compromise I am not willing to make. Though I will accept in this day and age, concealing my real name is something that has given me food for thought.. So I will accept that, though I should not have to.

Also I am going to say this though I know it will do nothing to change anything but; Even if you maintain that trans women are not women, please at the very least do not equate me or other genuine trans women to men. Trans woman are vastly different to men even if we are not the same 100% as natal women. It is disingenuous, cruel and simply not true. I am in this instance referring to trans women who has at least begun HRT.

@ShotsFired - Looking at that list, IMO the ones I should be able to compete as a woman at without overt disclosure:

Parkrun
Charity Runs

But if I am honest, I don't know enough about the definition of some of the others (and it is too late and I have posted far too much).

I need to stop trying to reply to every single person who says something.

So apologies for the constant walls of text people.. I am too tired to type anymore.

ShotsFired No amount of give by women will ever be enough. Trans women and TRA will not be happy until women no longer exist. Who will validate the TW when they've forced women out of the picture completely?

So when does it become "fair" to segregate?

Parkrun?
Running clubs?
Local charity 5k?
Regional 10k?
Half-marathon?
Full marathon?
One of the prestige marathons (London, Boston etc)?
Ultra running?
Specialist activities like trail or fell running?
Amateur athletics?
Competition athletics?
Professional athletics?
Etc..

Come on naysayers (or maybe that should be yaysayers?!), tell us where the acceptable line is the, if parkrun isn't it. And why that line is more ok than another (and why you think it will be respected anymore than parkrun)

I want what is fair based on sex not gender or worse, feelings

Yes this, it fair. Why should transwomen run against women? We are not the same.

So if men compare against men and women against women, who do transpeople ( who do hormone and surgical procedures) compare themselves to? How is that fair? There are no third spaces. Why can't we have a non competitive event that is treated as such?

Just going to agree with you again. It totally is a pick your battle situation, as there's nothing wrong with parkrun being inclusive for everyone and being a non competitive event. In a competitive one, people would have a point.Not here though. There's no spaces being taken away from anyone.

MIdgebabe Is that addressed to me? If so, no, I don't want trouble, I want what is fair based on sex not gender or worse, feelings. Allowing trans women to compete against women is not fair to women, men once again have the advantage. If trans women want to compete, do what women did, organise runs. It's not rocket science really. It won't happen of course because that is not validating.

In this case the third space option would be as simple as adding another set of results categories for trans women and for trans men. They could then compare their results to the people most like themselves, physiologically, and thus get a sense of how well they're doing.

So if men compare against men and women against women, who do transpeople ( who do hormone and surgical procedures) compare themselves to? How is that fair? There are no third spaces. Why can't we have a non competitive event that is treated as such?

It's like you are looking for trouble

You know, it makes me think... Life I mean.

Women have spent decades fighting for safe spaces for our sex. There is of course reasons why women need those spaces and I'm not going to get into that, they're well known.

Then... As soon as women begin to make real inroads into the equality fight, what happens? Well, men don't like it do they? I mean, the sheer cheek that women might speak up for themselves.

So, if women can go against men and start on the long road to equality, then why can't trans people, especially trans women?

The only reasons I can come up with is, they can't be bothered so appropriate women's hard won spaces. Using women's spaces validated them, they want to keep the patriarchy going.

In other words - stuff what women want, men will have their way, even in Park-run.

Hi Lucy,

I have no legal right to ask you not to call me Cis but please know I really hate being called that and don’t do it.

Thanks.

Discrimination is being treated unfairly...,being paid 10% less than the men..being raped...having your voice ignored and your ideas pinched.....being taunted and teased and bullied

Being bumped down the listings because you are compared with men when you thought you were just being compared with women...

People that do parkrun compare their scores - it is only fair that women are allowed to compare like with like, should they want to.

'Parkrun is not a competition' is simply not an excuse to deny women biological categorisation. Parkrun most certainly is competitive, otherwise they wouldn't publish categories and race positions.

Sorry I don't know of special connotations around the phrase " special treatment" ...sorry if my choice of words has not helped

Good grief, I begin to think that many people here have never experianced real discrimination if they are willing to get in such a paddy over one transwomen running in a non competitive event.

Discrimination is being treated unfairly...,being paid 10% less than the men..being raped...having your voice ignored and your ideas pinched.....being taunted and teased and bullied.

The result of that means that I don't want to discriminate against others who are different.

The result of that is I really hate stereotyping and do as much as possible to remove sterotypes by only focussing on sex/gender when I think it actually matters

I have boundaries that I don't think should be crossed. Fun sport is not one such boundary.

Good grief. I don't think that men and women should compete in sport. But parkrun is not a competition. If you want a competition, enter a race.
EXACTLY, it's not fucking rocket science, is it,but you'd bloody think so!!