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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

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ferntwist · 02/05/2018 06:17

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

JustGettingStarted · 02/05/2018 05:50

Ada, you're not the person in the op of the original thread. I am not 2 seconds slower than 23 minutes.

You said that there has been relatively little negative reaction to your participation, and that has been limited to forums where they feel safe voicing their opinions. That would indicate that there is likely more than you're aware of.

It may be that some women genuinely see you as a peer. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the smiling, supportive women also mentally remove you from the results when they get their results email,if they're at all inclined to want to track their standing amongst their age/sex group.

MarvelleGazelle · 02/05/2018 02:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 02:29

Another way of looking at it- do women consider you their peer?

In a non competitive, all inclusive race like parkrun? Yes I do.

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 02:27

Another way of looking at it- do women consider you their peer?

For the most part, yes they do. I'm sure there are exceptions, but my day to day experience has been one of support and inclusion.

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 02:26

Your beliefs are in direct conflict with material reality.

They're really not. My own experience, which I listed early pretty clearly shows that. And the research that has been done backs it up.

Now I'm not talking about all sports. I'm not saying we don't have an advantage anywhere at anything. But in the context of running, we don't have an advantage.

MarvelleGazelle · 02/05/2018 02:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 02:24

Request a category for your gender if you please rather than trying to turn our sex category into your gender.

How does that work at parkrun level then? Surely at any given run there'll only be one,possibly even two at a stretch running.
If they've transitioned to women,and in a non competitive race, they have every right not to be in a category all by themselves.

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 02:19

My peers are women, who I don't have advantage over.

Your beliefs are in direct conflict with material reality.

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 02:18

I wish the best possible experience with parkrun - but please don't insist you are the same as biological women.

I'm not the same as most other woman. My experiences are very different to most women's. I accept that. But I'm still a woman. And whatever differences I do have, athletic advantage isn't one of them

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 02:11

But you're not a biological woman either, Ada. With the best will in the world, you haven't been through female puberty, you don't have periods every month, you haven't been through pregnancy or childbirth.

I wish the best possible experience with parkrun - but please don't insist you are the same as biological women. That is unfair.

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 02:05

It's just asking for an overall fairness towards women, Ada. An opportunity for women to compare like with like

That's exactly what I'm looking for too! I'm not a man. I don't have a mans advantages. My peers are women, who I don't have advantage over.

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 02:02

Request a category for your gender if you please rather than trying to turn our sex category into your gender.

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 01:53

It's just asking for an overall fairness towards women, Ada. An opportunity for women to compare like with like - in a category of biological women.

It's not just parkrun - the reason I argue so vociferously is that this has implications for all women's sports. You must have seen the headlines. This is part of a normalisation of born males being allowed to identify into women's sporting categories.

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 01:43

NatLuc, you're not alone! I'm a transgender parkrunner to. I recently got a story about me in the Australian parkrun newsletter, and I'm quite possibly the trans woman the OP was complaining about that started this whole discussion.

One thing you need to realise though is that mumsnet favours a very specific set of beliefs around transgender people and our identities. It does not reflect the larger experience you'll have at parkrun.

In my case, since the article went live, I have been drowned by messages of support, including the various women's running groups I'm a member of. Of course, there have been negative voices too, but they are small in number, and tend to be restricted to specific spaces where those beliefs are welcome.

And in terms of advantage, before my transition, as a 41 year old, running against males, my PB was 19:41, which means that I ran 70% of the male world record for my age.

Since transitioning, hormones have drastically reduced my athletic ability. My best time now is 23:00, which has me running at about 67% of the women's world record for my age.

That is to say, even though my times have dropped, my performance within my gender category has stayed roughly the same. I haven't found any advantages, and in fact, I'm performing slightly worse against women than I did against men.

And the research shows that for transitioning runners at least, my experience is typical. As long as our training stays constant, even though our times drop, our age grading stays roughly where it was.

That's the thing that I find frustrating in all of this. So many of these comments are based on assumptions of advantage, and for running at least, they simply don't exist. We don't see trans women runners dominating their sports, we don't see large changes in performance, with ladies running better against women than they did against men. The (admittedly limited) research in this field demonstrates the same. If transitioned trans women had an advantage in running, we'd have seen it by now

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 01:41

You make it sound like we ask for the moon on a stick.

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 01:41

Honestly, what is the matter with women having fair categorisation based on their biological sex?

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 01:37

Stop trying to remove stuff that women want.

I don't friggin want it removing! I even said I hope they dont though.

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 01:35

Right, I'm obviously going to have to get off my fat ass and go to Parkrun on Saturday again. Been a few months since I did it . Just so I can see if any emails shows anything different to the actual result table that just shows placing of those who ran, with age group and sex next to it. All in one table, together. I've never raged because someone totally male has beat me in the listing before making me huff that I'm now number 57 as opposed to 55 or whatever. Cos you're all in the same published list.
I blame you all for making me feel like I can't just drink my tea and have toast in bed whilst DH/kiddy small peeps go running lol.
From those posted earlier, it's a name - age - sex thing all in one table all running in no categories (no categories in parkrun itself when you run, you just run/jog/walk/whatevs.)

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 01:33

No, we want there to a biological women's category. It's really terribly simple.

Stop trying to remove stuff that women want.

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 01:23

Seriously, where are people wanting this to go? Seems the only way to resolve this is to get rid of the sex column? I hope they don't though.

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 01:18

Why do you keep denying there is a) a women's category, and b) an element of competitiveness in Parkrun?

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 01:13

Oh fgs Cady, how many people have to say this to you - you receive a placement within your sex/age category.

Right,right. Maybe parkrun should just do away with the sex column on the published online results then.
Seriously, where are people wanting this to go? It's a non competitive run. Exercise on a Saturday morning for all.
They've even said, everyone welcome, non competitive, and they're sad that people feel they have to ask if they are welcome or not before signing up and getting out there.
You (general you) might hate the thought of transitioned women being women , but they're doing fuck all wrong at parkrun in a non competitive run.

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 01:04

Where do you suggest the women go for fairness when their category is taken over by men who want to brag that they came in first or second?

There is a women's category. Why are you denying it?

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 01:03

there are nooooo women's places to take at parkrun.

Oh fgs Cady, how many people have to say this to you - you receive a placement within your sex/age category.

Lucy says she is a biological male, as well as a transwoman - how is it fair on women that Lucy is placed in with the biological females? We know there are physiological advantages to being biologically male in running races - as there are in many/most sports. That's why women's sports are separated from the mens.