Trans Park Run Deletion

It had nothing to do with transgender, sorry to derail th thread.

One reason given was so that people would take women's football more seriously. They also want to research the benefits do mixed teams.

In my experience being a girls team in a boys league is fine when they are u12 but dispiriting at u16

I remember watching mixed hockey at school. It was terrifying.

When I get off my arse to do Park Run, I like to compare my (shocking) time to my Age Grade, to assess my performance against my peers. It's an element of competition, to help me measure my improvement and also spur me on.
If my peers now include transwomen, who may be at any stage of transition, that is not fair grading. That's my problem.

I agree that this matters in elite sport, and combat sports. Park run though? Even if Ada is wrong in asserting a lack of advantage, I don't think it matters.

The FA has approved mixed football until 18. What was the rationale for this, do you know by any chance? Sounds like a very bad idea. I doubt boys would be very please about this either.

Scabbersley - perhaps the FA has approved mixed football upto 18 to avoid the contentious issue of transitioning teenagers and raising this exact issue that we are having on this thread. (It also means they don’t have to put funds into girls teams). I don’t think mixed football upto the age 18 is fair at all and to be honest will probably stop a lot of teen girls playing.

Once girls reach a certain age they do not play mixed football
They do, the FA changed it fairly recently

She's 12 and about to trial for the u14s. That could mean she is a year 8 12 year old girl playing against a year 9 15 year old boy. Last season there was a concussion, a broken arm and a broken collarbone. I am dreading it tbh.

Once girls reach a certain age they do not play mixed football. My son is 15 and nearly 6 feet with no muscle yet (beanpole) but I wouldn’t want to tackle him on a pitch especially since he can lift me up and I can’t lift him.

The FA has approved mixed football until 18.

Scabbersley How old is your dd? It's different when they are 7 or 17.

Are you talking about a hockey/netball competition, under the governing rules, or a scratch game for whoever turns up in the park on a Saturday? Both. I feel it's intrusive having a male bodied player on the team. physically intrusive.

AuntieStella "you should adhere to the rules of the governing body" isn't good enough, as there is a lot of contention within the governing bodies over what's fair. Arbitrary testosterone limits being imposed rather than arbitrary Y chromosome limits, for example.

Sure, parkrun isn't a huge deal. But then you get the Boston Marathon, which is a combination of amateur and professional in the same event. Right on up to the Olympics.

Obviously

My dd plays mixed football so a trans girl on a team wouldn't be an issue.

Ada how come your identity is more important than my biology?

Ada and Lucy thank you for your honest views and for explaining your views. You both seem very reasonable.

If we ignore Park Run as I think we have done that to death. How do you feel about male boxers transitioning and now fighting as women? Or male cyclists transitioning and now winning women’s road cycling events? Personally I don’t think this is fair but what do you think we as women should do about it?

Ciao2Roma Are you talking about a hockey/netball competition, under the governing rules, or a scratch game for whoever turns up in the park on a Saturday?

For the former, the rules as set by governing body would apply and should be adhered to. For the latter, no, not bothered (even though people would know which team won, one hopes in those circs no-one would be attaching weight to it)

How would people on here feel if their dd was competing in hockey or netball and there was a trans girl (native male) in the opposing team? We will see more of this. I feel really uneasy about this. My dd can be at the top of her game but would be made to feel lesser compared to a trans girl who will have a physiological advantage. Genuine question, not to inflame. I can see both sides.

The problem with some transitioning/transitioned men seems to be that they seem completely oblivious to the idea that women, raised all their life as women, might look at things in a different way. It seems so incredibly self-centred and only emphasises the difference between biological males and females. Female socialisation means we tend to look at the wider picture

If you settle for calling yourselves transwomen, we will accept that and conceivably find a way of co-existing. If you insist on calling yourselves women (and you are doing so on this thread) and infiltrating women-only spaces uninvited, don't be surprised if we fight back.

That is not transphobic, btw. I have the utmost sympathy for your situation and wish anyone transitioning a happy future .... as long as it's not at the expense of my daughter and granddaughter's future too. Because protecting others, especially family, is what most women instinctively do.

But in the context of running, we don't have an advantag

You can say that as many times as you like, it doesn't make it true.

i can for the Boston Marathon, because that's a competitive event, under rules.

Whatever people insist here, based on the wrong assumption that timed=competitive, Parkrun is an inclusive community event, not a competitive one and is not under rules.

And no, I do not agree that all events must be competitive.

Men on average have an advantage over women running 5K because they have larger heart and lungs

And that's still true. I probably do have a larger heart and lungs, because hormones don't really change that. But they do change every other part of my cardiovascular system. My red blood cell count is reduced, my VO2Max is reduced and my blood oxygen levels are reduced.

As I understand it, my heart and lungs don't give me an advantage here, because the other parts of my cardiovascular system become the limiting factor.

much higher muscle ratio, lower body fat percentage (even for overweight men) and a different bone structure.

All of this changes with hormones! I used to have 15% body fat. I haven't changed weight during my transition, but my body fat is now at 20%, and is located in traditionally female locations. My thighs rub together when I run now! And the reason my body fat has gone up, but my weight hasn't changed, is because I've lost muscle mass. My strength is greatly reduced, especially in my upper body.

And my body fat levels still aren't at the levels they will ultimately end up at. It's still slowly increasing

Cross sex hormones might have a minimal affect on body fat but very little.

It's more than minimal!

And ultimately, the reason I don't mark my runs as assisted anymore is because I have done the research and looked at my own results and I am confident I am not carrying an unfair advantage over other women. If I believed for a second that I was, I'd change all of my results to assisted in a heartbeat.

I do understand that not everyone agrees with me, whether they doubt my right to run as a woman, or simply believe that I do have an advantage. But all I can do is what I believe to be the right and fair thing. And that's what I'm doing. Even if you do disagree with me, this was a choice I made after a lot of personal consideration. My historical pre-transition runs are all marked as assisted precisely because it was the right thing to do.

But, I am a woman, and I will run as a woman. I won't let other people decide my identity for me, though I do acknowledge their right to disagree with me. And as long as the evidence continues to suggest that I'm running without advantage, I will continue to run openly with and as a woman.

But it starts at parkrun. The Boston marathon has now said that trans women can compete as women. So as we all seem to agree marathons are competitive. So Cady do you now agree this is wrong?

AdaRuns, how odd that you came just for this thread to say the women can lump it.

I am not 2 seconds slower than 23 minutes.

I don't run those sorts of times anymore! My training has dropped off quite a lot. I'm running closer to 25 minutes these days.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if the smiling, supportive women also mentally remove you from the results when they get their results email,if they're at all inclined to want to track their standing amongst their age/sex group.

And that's their right. No one has an obligation to personally accept my identity as valid. People are allowed to think what they think.