Trans Park Run Deletion

Cady, I've already make it quite clear that I will not be adjusting the way I write in order to better suit your personal preferences.

@FloraFox - We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.. Because the fact that the word 'trans' is used in 'trans man' and 'trans woman' is enough of a way of identifying and acknowledging that someone was not born of that sex. Deliberately calling these people men and woman is insulting.

It was not a statement that was ever typed (to my knowledge) however that is the impression that I get from a lot of the attitudes. Yes perhaps it is a bitter interpretation but it is born from the view that I am 'a man in a skirt'. Which is an equally bitter view point.

I do not think that joining discourse is barging in. Trans woman had little to no representation in this thread and given that running is something I have taken up again I felt that I could offer a viewpoint on something that affects me directly and my ability to live as normally as a woman as I possibly can.

do understand that I am different to natal women, with some different issues and struggles but does that, therefore, mean that the experiences I have, with respect to being trans female are therefore not just 'worth less' but also worthless despite many of them being the same as a natal woman? I do not think so..

No one is saying they are worth less. The point is that they are DIFFERENT.

natal women should helping to protect us. You have the experience and the numbers to do it.

Because it is the role of women to serve and look after men presumably.

I am very happy for and supportive of transpeople to have the particular issues which impact them addressed. I am very unhappy for women to be expected to do this for them and indeed compromise womens rights in the process.

Why the need for "listen mate" type comments? Can you imagine if you got a "listen, love" like for like type comment back.
FGS.

I find lengthy appeals to female socialisation counterproductive. And infuriating.

Is there something about being male and "identifying" as a woman that removes a person's ability to edit and requires their every comment to be 10 times as long as anyone else's while containing very little content other than "I'm more important than you so let's talk about how you can center me"? FFS.

'Women are not just make-up, heels and hair flicking. Have you had to work full time and then take care of children and a home, while balancing a budget? With all due respect you have no idea what it is like to be a woman.'

Wow, what nonsense.

instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us.

So male people telling female people what they should be doing for the benefit of male people.

Seriously you have no idea how you come across do you?

Feminism is for females and we have no good reason to centre males who have a trans identity anymore than we do to centre gay men.

natal women should helping to protect us.

I will fight to protect my daughters and granddaughters I will NOT fight to protect men!

I do not think my lack of affinity to the issues natal woman face is the issue, I think it is a lack of understanding from many users on the likes of MN that is the problem for not seeing that there are clear parallels between the issues faced and that instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us. You have the experience and the numbers to do it.

Listen, mate, women kind of have our hands full protecting ourselves (and girls). We really don't have the bandwidth to take on the protection of another group too, nor should we be expected to do so just because you'd like us to.

Just because many women on this site are mothers does not mean that they are your mother. The attitude you're displaying here reeks of male entitlement.

s between the issues faced and that instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us.

When was the last time you worked toward improved maternity care, breastfeeding support, maternity rights, reduction of pay gap, woman being able to access police protection?

Stop making woman do more work? We are flat chat trying to improve the lives of those around us already without doing more shit for males.

NatLuc the experiences I have, with respect to being trans female are therefore not just 'worth less' but also worthless despite many of them being the same as a natal woman? I do not think so..

You understand periods, contraception, fertility, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, birth injuries, loss of pelvic floor muscle, menopause? I would suggest not, so how your experiences are the same as mine is laughable.

Women are not just make-up, heels and hair flicking. Have you had to work full time and then take care of children and a home, while balancing a budget? With all due respect you have no idea what it is like to be a woman. Putting on a dress and claiming victimhood is not how it works.

As a general note rather than a specific one - the more words people expend putting their rights and needs ahead of mine, the less likely I am to be willing to compromise. I find lengthy appeals to female socialisation counterproductive. And infuriating.

natluc

I meant that it is a loaded slur that was manufactured in the first instance to imply that we are simply delusional. It was not an attack on your personally but the acronym itself.

This is wrong. It was coined to provide a term that could be used as an alternative to "transwoman" or "male to female" or "male to trans" because those terms are not accurate.

I was also not referring to this thread with respect to the sexual predator comment. As I stated in my opening message I have lurked MN for some time as it has been a bit of a guilty pleasure and some threads do draw parallels to trans women as being nothing more than predators. But hey... Trans woman take Cyproterone Acetate to control testosterone.. sex offenders are made to take it to control their urges... ergo.. trans women must be predators because they take the same incredibly powerful and toxic drug right?

You made that up. I don't believe anyone on MN has ever said that. It would be a great screenshot for TRAs to show transphobia on MN - like the s.28 screenshot.

I joined MN and started commenting because I got sick of being bashed by people that have absolutely no right to judge me or get to make the decision as to whether I fit the gender role of 'woman' or not. Yes, I am a trans woman, but trans women live and breath the role of woman. That is an important distinction to make I feel?

This is a nice illustration that (a) you do not care what women think, you are barging in regardless and (b) you think being a woman is about fitting into a gender role.

Shotsfired. How is that any different to a feminist or others voicing their opinion from the other side. They/we/I/you do not speak on behalf of all women.
Most people pay no attention to either side.

@ICJump - it was a facetiously worded response to a ludicrous statement, it was not meant to be watertight. Of course I understand that uncontrollable desire is not the only (nor main reason) that men assault, rape, intimidate or generally impose themselves inappropriate on women.

@Datum - I do listen, and I do understand that I am different to natal women, with some different issues and struggles but does that, therefore, mean that the experiences I have, with respect to being trans female are therefore not just 'worth less' but also worthless despite many of them being the same as a natal woman? I do not think so..

I do not think my lack of affinity to the issues natal woman face is the issue, I think it is a lack of understanding from many users on the likes of MN that is the problem for not seeing that there are clear parallels between the issues faced and that instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us. You have the experience and the numbers to do it. But I will not accept that because I am trans I am in anyway inferior to natal women. I accept I am not a 'true woman' in a biological sense but in a colloquial setting I am. THAT is why I will interchangeably refer to myself as both a trans woman and a woman depending on the conversational setting.

As for moving goalposts, I think that is a bit much. I have in one message said if anything trans woman (of a more slight build once on HRT) are at a disadvantage and in another stated that there is no measurable advantage or disadvantage, however this is a simple case of playing devils advocate and proposing a line of thinking to be able to discuss things from several viewpoints. As I said in my opening message, I only have the data I have collected on myself and my own experiences to draw from because there is so little peer-reviewed data on the matter.

Apologies if I lead you to believe that I was picking and choosing my narrative. The only narrative I do have is that in MY personal case, as a trans woman, I do not see an issue, but as I have said in a reply to another user I can understand why if there was a pre-HRT and still at their male prime trans woman competing then I can see this as a huge issue.

I do have a problem with the language consistently used, however. I am not a man. I am male. Big difference. I have been very careful (I think?) to not confuse woman with female (except with the exception of where Parkrun is concerned with it's M and F categorisation) whenever I have been discussing biological/physiological functions so why are most users not as insightful? There is a huge difference between a trans woman and a man physiologically in MOST cases. I understand it is a petty thing to pick out as all you and others had to do was type 'male' instead but again, an important distinction to make.

If 'Men' started claiming trans status just to be able to run in the women's category then I would absolutely be with you on the side of 'that is not right' but saying trans women are just men looking to run as women is disingenuous and simply not true.

Everytime TIM come into FWR and patiently explain why women are wrong, I see more and more differences in our biology and experiences.

Aint that the truth. Trans people love to come here to tell us how wrong we are.

@natluc

@M0RVEN=And that gives you the right to therefor tar all trans women with the same brush? I only know a handful of natal young woman around my age that engage in care work or volunteering.What a hollow statement, just as mean-spirited as your last one

I was talking about the TIM that I know. Unless you are suggesting know all the same ones ? I know many young women who volunteer and who are active in their communities.

And last time I checked, pushing your granny round the supermarket wasn’t “ engaging in care work “.

So only natal women can experience sexual assault and harassment because the idea that a man might find a trans person desirable is so far out of the realms of possibility for you and natal women also have a monopoly on either job roles involved with safeguarding children or vulnerable people. Right. Got it

You are clearly confused because I didnt say any of that. At all.

And I find it quite chilling that you equate being sexually assualted and raped with a man [ the perpetrator ] finding someone [ the victim ] desirable.

Rape and sexual assault are not about attraction, they are about power.

Men don’t harass , abuse , rape and kill women because they find them “desirable “ . They do it because they hate them and to keep them in their place.

How about if trans people spent their energy making being trans a positive experience in its own right, instead of alienating women by keeping repeating the mantra 'transwomen are women'?

You might find us very supportive allies in those circumstances.

Also given that gender is a social construct, then its entirely about other people's judgements.

people that have absolutely no right to judge me or get to make the decision as to whether I fit the gender role of 'woman' or not.

Woman is not a gender role, or an identity. It's an adult human female. We don't know we're women because we fit a gender role.

Also those of us with mental illness are excluded from things, we may not like it but we mostly understand that it's for valid reasons. Mentally ill appears to still be an insult to some, which is pretty backwards IMO.

@NatLuc, you know, if you (and others) had come along at the start, with a desire to openly converse and debate and discuss, then we may have found a solution and all be bumbling along nicely by now.

Unfortunately, a particular cohort of people claiming to be representing the name of trans people got in there and totally screwed us over. They didn't want debate or mutual agreement. They wanted victory, validation, success (whatever) for them at all expense to natal women (you know, "go diaf TERF" and "dis cis scum" and all the rest of it, up to and including a bunch of masked men physically blocking and intimidating women from attending a meeting about women).

You needed to have stood up then and said "no, this is not what I want, you are not speaking for me". Trans people are a relatively small community, I can't see how this would have been happening in secret.

But now it's fallen to us to repel boarders, and fight (again) for our own agency, so unfortunately things are a lot more difficult.

None of us enjoy this you know. We don't wake up desperate to start telling people to "get off my land!" and having to explain the same concepts time and time again. It was thrust on us by your compadres. How about you turn the spotlight on them?

What Datun said. Entirely.

lucy

I urge you to listen to what women are saying, because this problem is not going to go away. You may not like it, but try not to get defensive.

Your lack of affinity for women is difficult for women to swallow, because in the same breath you're claiming you are one.

There are many transsexuals who do not hold that contention. Social empathy is what they ask for, and that's about the extent of it.

A biological male occupying the place of a biological female is completely flawed - when that place is held on the basis of biology.

I note that you shift the goalposts by saying in one post that you have no advantage over women due to medical intervention, and in another post that you might beat natal males due to medical intervention.

Shifting goalposts to shore up an argument is not a good premise to start with.

And in terms of this particular event. You are saying that under these conditions, in your circumstances, in this particular run, it doesn't matter. Firstly it's not up to you to decide whether it matters, and secondly women shouldn't have to put up with a relentless argument that relies on a case-by-case basis.

We already have categories based on advantage, and they are natal categories. They are comprehensively, and objectively by far the best way to categorise. And for women, they are the only way to categorise.

If you want to recalibrate categorisation based on medical intervention, let's legalise drugging all round. But men will still win.

I, and I think most women on here, understand Cady's point of view that this particular event is negligible. But it's not really about the result, or it's only partly about the result. You can't legislate on the basis of individual circumstances and case-by-case scenarios. I realise that's not necessary in this event, but the principle is exactly the same. Women as a class should not have to suffer any disadvantage in order to validate men as a class.

Claiming that you can ignore this if you do it on an individual basis is demonstrably wrong. Every single time women give an inch over this issue, a mile is instantly taken.

Because it's a complete fallacy to claim that women are giving anything. They're not. It's being taken. Cady might be agreeing with you. But what she doesn't realise is, she has little choice.

"If you don’t understand that desire and assault are two different things I don’t know where to start."

Quite.

Everytime TIM come into FWR and patiently explain why women are wrong, I see more and more differences in our biology and experiences.

*o only natal women can experience sexual assault and harassment because the idea that a man might find a trans person desirable is so far out of the realms of possibility for you^

Men don’t rape and beat woman cause they find us sexy. They do it because they hate us, because they want to control us, because they can. If you don’t understand that desire and assault are two different things I don’t know where to start.