Trans Park Run Deletion

Hi Lucy.

Can I just ask - to what level have you actually studied biology? As a science?

Because your bodily processes are not female, they can't be.

Same for Ada. You say you "just are" a woman, not that you identify as a woman or think you are a woman. Only you're not. Biologically you can't be.

Now me, I "just am" a woman. Because my biology makes me female, and adult human female = woman. In no other way. No gender role, not thoughts about it, I just am. But your biology is different to mine so we cannot be the same.

I'm not excluding you, belittling you, "othering" you or discriminating against you. I'm just saying that our fundamental starting points are different. Sometimes our needs and lives will overlap, and that's great.

But I would prefer to freely accept you for what you are and live alongside you than be forced to accept you as something you're not and feel bitter and resentful about it, and that to me is the heart of the current self-id debate.

Annoying, probably, Baroque.

I don't identify as a woman. I don't think I'm a woman. I am a woman.

. So a women isn't an an adult human female. What do you call adult human females?

Sure, no rush!

@LangCleg - I do not think it combative at all, I know that I take too long to get to my point sometimes but only because I am trying to put my entire point across. I think it is a result of often having been interrupted in conversation whereas in written form I can get out exactly what I wish?

Again I genuinely do want to have thoughtful conversation with all so I will take it as constructive criticism lol.

@Scabbersley - Thank you, and I do understand that I am not the same, but I just do not see us as wholly different. As I have said in another comment there are issues you face that I do not have any bearing on. I do however believe that natal women should have a right to comment on trans issues a lot more because often changes to our rights do affect natal women.

@Baroquehavoc - I will give it a watch tonight when I get home from work. :)

@spontaneousgiventime - If I mistook your intent in your words then I apologise however they were patronising. To me at least. I apologise for striking back with the 'spit and seethe' statement. It is not a case of trying to belittle you. I genuinely took your comment about dress wearing, makeup blabbing and hair flicking to be quite stereotypical. which is not fair. Neither is referring to an appendage that I have as personifying me. Let us just agree that there are some rights which on both sides of the fence should be fought for but that in trans rights, these need to be carefully considered so as not to infringe or endanger natal woman whenever possible?

@AngryAttackKittens - I am happy to answer this or at least attempt to though I do not think any of you will find it satisfactory when I have seen others try and fail (not necessarily on MN). I will come back to you with an answer typed out if that is okay?

Basically Ada I need you to identify with us, not as us, because we have nowhere else to go and nothing else to be than women.

@Thanksforthatamazingpost, I know you won't see it, but that is exactly the situation I'm in. I'd much rather have been just like any other woman out there, but I drew the short straw, and I'm a woman that is rejected by my own, because my body unfortunately makes me look like someone I'm not, and caused me to be treated like someone I'm not for a long time.

But no amount of socialisation, no amount of being told I'm a man, none of that changes my identity. I don't identify as a woman. I don't think I'm a woman. I am a woman. It's been who I am as long as I can remember. It's part of who I am, and I can no more deny that than anyone else can deny their own selves. That being said, I did try and deny it. I spent many many years trying to deny it. But, it can't be denied, because I don't have a choice in who I am. I just am who I am.

Had a conversation with DH about the having periods in every way but the bleeding thing. If a straight man with no genderfeels whatsoever can grasp the concept that the bits that hurt are the bits that trans women don't have...

Please don't try to tell me that you have periods 'in all the essential ways except for the bleeding', by the way, or I might blow a gasket.

I imagine you have more sense, but that Twitter thread was a doozy.

Hi @NatLuc what do you mean by your bodily processes are female?

Hi NatLuc, I'm appreciating your attempts to explain the possibly indefinable. But I don't get why, in the face of women telling you that womanhood is just a biological fact, identifiable in the dead or unconscious, you and other transgender people insist that it is more important to define it as an inner feeling.

I'm also baffled by this: I am not saying that by having a compromised male endocrine system I have ceased to be a male. But I am saying that my bodily processes are female

Surely it's the other way round? I'd be very happy to call you something other than male, given how strongly you clearly want NOT to be male. But that doesn't make you female, and the bodily processes unique to females are the ones you don't have (lucky old you, frankly, but that's a different thread) - otherwise they;d be shared human bodily processes, not female ones.

That's where my preference for being kind, inclusive, understanding etc. smacks up against the need to know what we're talking about.

Why is the terminology so important to you? Is it so that you can stay safe rather than being seen as trans, or is it something more fundamental?

@Datum - I think that I do not view being female as being 'better'. It is the fact that all social and pragmatic stuff aside, I know that I was not born right. And I know people will argue that but that is irrelevant. I think a lot of this contention is coming from the fact that most women in this thread are using the word woman as a strict biological identifier, I am using it only in the sense of a collective. I have conceded many times I am not biologically female but that colloquially I am a woman, a trans woman. Does that make sense? I am not offended by the coldness, it is a truth in the sense you are referring, I just do not think it has to invalidate what I have said either?

I do not agree with you that the issues faced are superficial. Are you saying a trans woman would only be raped or sexually assaulted if they pass? Not trying to argue this, it is a genuine question.

I appreciate there are rights that are innate solely based upon a natal woman's biology and that there are many things that need to be improved upon for natal women. Wha I a trying to get across is that sometimes, there is no reason why feminists and TRAs cannot join forces for the good of both. But yes, there are many issues that if in the room, trans women should either stay respectfully quiet or contribute if it is conducive to furthering those rights, not hindering them on the basis of 'you cant say clit or period because that is transphobic to me and my feels'. Obviously silencing a natal woman's RIGHT to talk and discuss issues surrounding her body is absurd. I would shake my head at any TRA or trans person who tries to censor a natal female that way.

I am not saying that by having a compromised male endocrine system I have ceased to be a male. But I am saying that my bodily processes are female?

Completely agree that it is good to have discourse and it is nice to talk to you! I think that in an ideal world where I am not replying to a million and one people and then being complained at for walls of text, we could have quite an interesting and targeted discussion :) Looking forward to discussing other things too in the future.

Yes, I am a trans woman, but trans women live and breath the role of woman.

Role. I think this is part of the problem.

In some ways my experiences are different from a lot of the women on this thread because I'm a single, childfree lesbian. Back in my 20s I got mistaken for a boy on occasion. But I was born with a vagina & XX chromosomes so that now makes me an adult human female, & that's what a woman is.

It's not a role. Not a badge of honour. Just biology & everything else stems from that.

Not being a woman doesn't make someone better or worse, more or less important or valid, just different. There aren't degrees of womanhood - degrees of femininity yes, but that is a role or a social construct.

So if you're going to stick around, Nat, I would like to know what the woman's role is that you believe that trans women are living. What does that role consist of? What are its challenges and its rewards? When you look at the "cis" women around you do they seem to you to be living that same role?

spontaneousgiventime - I think on the contrary it is you who has shown true colours, assuming that trans women are nothing more than superficial imitations and completely disregarding that we are actual people who experience actual hardships the same as natal women.

I will be over here supporting my natal female friends and family and even woman I do not know whilst you @spontaneousgiventime - I think on the contrary it is you who has shown true colours, assuming that trans women are nothing more than superficial imitations and completely disregarding that we are actual people who experience actual hardships the same as natal women.

I will be over here supporting my natal female friends and family and even woman I do not know whilst you spit and seethe that all I want to do is barge in an erase you. that all I want to do is barge in an erase you.

Ok, lets get some facts established here shall we? As a human being I strongly believe you and all other trans people have rights that are absolutely not negotiable. I would stand and wave my placard in support of trans rights if they ever chose to fight for their own rights and not just take over womens.

Simply due to biology, trans women will never be women, in 100 years if someone checked your DNA they would state they had found a male skeleton, that cannot be changed, nor can the things our biological bodies are designed to do. I cannot impregnate anyone, you cannot be impregnated, that is perhaps something you wish were different, but it is fact.

The internet is wonderful for many things but one thing where it lacks is in being able to tell the mood or personality of any given poster unless they choose to disclose that. You accuse me of sitting and "spit and seethe". I don't think I've ever spat or seethed ever. Sure, I can have strong opinions on many issues and I will voice them, I have the right to do that, however spit and seethe made me howl laughing. You can insult me or try to belittle me and my experiences as much as your want, it truly doesn't bother me one little bit.

The penis sure does like to come forward and introduce itself.

AngryAttackKittens

also this

One of my issues is that to the extent that there's a role for women in society that role is "unpaid and underappreciated carer", on a far more universal level than the "decorative object" role. Given that the former role is not one commonly taken on by trans women this leads me to suspect that on a very fundamental level they do not understand what the female gender role in society actually is.

(And that's before we even get to the biology stuff.)

NatLuc. I recommend that you watch that video of Linda Bellos linked up thread. You might learn something.

See. My issue with the term transsexual is that I cant change my sex. I can change the appearance of my body to more closely approximate that of congruence with my identity, which is why I prefer the term transgender.. I dunno. It is all semantics but the old term just does not sit right with me. If I say 'transgender' I mean someone who is going from one binary to another, if I mean anything else I say non-binary. That is just me though?

Yeah that makes sense I guess. 'Transgender' to me though..kind of doesn't make sense as you are not transitioning from one 'gender' to another, as, well, your 'gender' is your gender. I prefer to think of gender as a personality tbh, as thats what I believe it is.

My main issue with transgender is how wide the 'umbrella' is. It basically lumps fetishists and drag queens and such in with transsexual people. I think in changing transsexual to transgender, thats where all of the recent 'female penis' shit started to be honest. and I think it was deliberate too. I am aware that comes across slightly conspiracy theory like though. Most of the general public hear 'transgender' and think transsexual. They do not realise that transgender includes crossdressers and masculine women, feminine men, etc.

NatLuc

Yes, I am a trans woman, but trans women live and breath the role of woman.

What role is that, exactly?

Basically, you seem like an intelligent person NatLuc and i wish you well. You have your own experiences and problems which are particular to you. You are a transwoman. I am a woman (a natal born female).

You are not the same as me. That doesn't make either of us 'better'. Just utterly different in ways you don't seem to grasp.

Spit and seethe, eh? Is she stirring a cauldron too in this hypothetical scenario?

I loved that talk by Linda.

When she said that masculinity and femininity as social categories that justify inequalities, she gets to the heart of the matter. TIM are asking that women prop up a system that damages us.

It has been said many times that I type too much. Succinctness is something I need to work on.

You are not alone. It seems to be a consistent theme from those who come here to a) appeal to our female socialisation to our own detriment, and b) present a list of demands to which women should feel obliged to comply.

I'm not being combative with you: I'm describing a common dynamic hereabouts, which is not feminist. I would advise a different approach should your genuine wish be to persuade in good faith.

@spontaneousgiventime - I think on the contrary it is you who has shown true colours, assuming that trans women are nothing more than superficial imitations and completely disregarding that we are actual people who experience actual hardships the same as natal women.

I will be over here supporting my natal female friends and family and even woman I do not know whilst you spit and seethe that all I want to do is barge in an erase you.