Trans Park Run Deletion

Have you asked parkrun to include transgender as a separate category? I bet they would be more than happy to consider it.

The problem here is that trans people may use the word "woman" in a social sense but almost no-one else does. If you spend a lot of time in very right-on queer spaces I can see how you might assume that most people do, but in my experience they really don't.

I live in a very right-on kind of place and even here, people use woman and man in the traditional way 99.999% of the time and then stop and correct themselves when talking to a trans person, or someone they know is particularly invested in trans politics, unless they're part of some very specific social circles. Efforts have been made to get the queer theory generated meanings into common usage, and many people will play along to be nice, but ultimately that's all it is. Kindness. Not a general societal acceptance of the idea that a kind of metaphysical category of woman exists and has replaced the original, biology-based categorization.

"Trans women are women in the social sense" is what we used to call a white lie when I was a child, essentially, an untruth that both the speaker and the listener know isn't true told to spare feelings. The problem that Nat and Ada are running into in this thread is that the people here are not friends, family, etc who're sufficiently invested in their happiness to be willing to lie, and the subject on which the thread began (sports and what happens when trans women want to compete in categories reserved for women) is one that requires clarity in terms of definitions.

Also @ Nat specifically, there were a few times in your comments where you seemed to be using the words woman and female interchangeably, and that was confusing the issue even further. Some women here may be willing to let the white lie of "trans women are women socially" pass, but far fewer are willing to budge on the question of what "female" means.

But as far as Parkrun goes, does nothing to include trans woman who are absolutely not comparable to the definition of Men.

To be clear, Trans women competing with men makes no sense. But neither does having a third/fourth category for Trans men/women because unless the number of runners was in the thousands or tens of thousands there would not be enough of us to bother?

So in the context of a run that is organised without the intent of being competitive, where is the harm? It is not like me finishing before anyone else has robbed them of their time, they would have still finished in the time they finished in. I am not truly skewing any data other than an arbitrary position of order.

Organised races, where a trans person has clear physically measurable attributes that would give them a clear advantage I can also agree that at the very least, a sensitive discussion needs to be had. But finishing mid-table in a fun run.. not so much.

Though at the end of the day, if I had to register my 'sex' rather than my 'gender' then, of course, I would put Male. But only on the promise that there would be no way of identifying me through this disclosure.

Thanks for that - I agree with your post, it's good to hear from people caught up in this mess, and hear how it affects and their thoughts.

Somebody pages back said parkrun had been "done to death." Now the thread's being told to stop talking about wider issues and start talking about it again." Make your mind up. Plus, now who's trying to police?

Ada, I think we are all enjoying (in an odd sort of way) talking to you and Lucy and you are clearly decent people.

There's an issue in that if you and I sat down and you really really told me what you mean by feeling you've always been a woman, you'd have to talk about all sorts of things that are very person and intimate and most people don't want to do that on the internet.

I liked Terfulike's response to you. She said:
"Ada you say you feel like a women , and more, you are a woman. However, we women don't "feel" like we are women , we watch our womanhood emerge as teenagers. We see that we are women when we menstruate. We acknowledge that we are women when we buy pregnancy tests. We suffer as women during childbirth. We nurture in the best possible way as women when we gestate and breastfeed. These and other issues did not and will not happen to you. These things, and many others, only happen to women and that's why we know we're women."

I wouldn't use the term "evidence-based" myself but everything else I agree with.

We have been using a colonialism analogy recently on the board which might help you understand how we feel (and clearly you do care to at least some extent). So here's my crude (sorry) analogy. You're like the Pilgrim Fathers fleeing persecution. You are defined by your previous suffering and partial escape from it. We're like the hapless native americans who took you in as a refugee but for whom it doesn't end well.

Oops...now reading the derailment posts

Woman has been defined as a person born female and who grew up with female socialisation. I think it captures well the interaction of gender ( society construct) and sex that impacts on our lives.

This is a recommended definition for scientific purposes that fits well with the term as widely used in society.

So a transwomen is not a subset or type of women.

@LangCleg - Yes that had not escaped me either I would love to get the topic back on course.

I've not seen 'park run' mentioned on this thread for a while now.

Because it has been successfully derailed.

I don't understand how anyone can be convinced that they are a woman, but be unable to define what a women is?

I've seen this idea that 'women' isn't an adult human female, but a social role. Yet nobody is willing to say what this social role is.

A lion isn't human, therefore wouldn't be a woman.

I've not seen 'park run' mentioned on this thread for a while now.

NatLuc As you well know but are putting the inevitable spin on it, my reply was nothing to do with SP. My reply to you was due to you claiming it is me who has the problem. Typical, typical TW violin playing crap.

It won't wash you know.

@Yambabe - Men are males and trans woman are biologically male but that does not make me a man is what I said.. I am fairly sure.

Whilst natal women ARE female, trans women are not. I agree, but 'women' is not a biological term. Female is. You would not say 'that woman lion' You say 'female'. Of course 'woman' can be used in a social sense? I don't think I am being unreasonable to say that?

As I have said I know I am a trans woman as an absolute identifier that is distinct from being 'a woman' but I also absolutely refute the idea that 'under the makeup and clothes I am a man'.

Langcleg - they're talking about parkrun. It's an interesting discussion.

To be fair, NatLuc shot themselves in the foot a few pages back. However, 10/10 to NC for thinking if NC keeps on and on we will all see this from NC's point of view, ask MN to close FWR and go into the kitchen and make jam.

NatLuc

I notice that now we are spending pages and pages of a thread about Parkrun discussing yours and Ada's status in society instead of Parkrun. This is something that also often happens hereabouts.

Everyone

Could we get back to Parkrun, please?

@spontaneousgiventime So because I realised how superficial the community was I decided it was not for me I am a bad person? The forum made me feel icky if I spent too long there. I found other communities. Like many, Susan's WAS the first place I came across but I saw it as a necessary evil until I realised there were better alternatives.

Lucy you just shot yourself in the foot right there!

You use the word woman in a social sense? WTF?

There is no social sense. Woman is adult human female. You have already said a few pages back that men are males, why do you think women aren't females?

What gives you the right to change the meaning of woman so you can fit into it?

THAT's what women are angry about.

Be a transwoman. Present how the hell you like. Men will probably still treat you like shit, but women will accept you as a transwoman. We just can't accept you as a woman. "Woman" is not a social sense, it's a biological reality.

spontaneousgiventime - The fact that you learned about trans people from Susan's is part of your problem.

Well, well, well. "I see your true colours shining through."

Baroquehavoc Oh it's definitely the fall back position and one I am very wise to these days. I see it with both the trans women who have posted here. Not so long ago I would have taken it all as written, now I take it with a very large dose of salt.

I KNOW what biological women go through, I know what young girls go through, so when someone with a penis tries to tell me about women then I give it short shrift.

@Stillmuddlingthrough and @Lancelottie - Lord no jeez, that was very poorly worded. No I do not have periods, and I found the 'nosebleed' scene in a certain recent (ish) trans film to be offensive. Apologies, when I said bodily processes I was referring to (in line with the thread) the way my body is hormonally now predisposed to storing and burning fat, building or cannibalising muscle and the speed at which it can repair and recover from intense workouts. Hope that clears that up. @Yambabe I hope this clears up for you what I meant too but just for completeness I stopped Biology at GCSE. And several times from page 14 I think, I have conceded I am biologically male but that I use the term woman in a social sense, and an inclusive one at that to include trans woman as a collective but I do also appreciate that there are limitations.

@spontaneousgiventime - The fact that you learned about trans people from Susan's is part of your problem. That place is a cesspool and I think that I was only there a few weeks before I woke up to how anti-woman it was. If that is what fuels your mental opinion of me then I assure you I am not like that. My partner and I broke up as a result of me transitioning but she cannot help her sexuality and more than I could help my need to transition. We are still on good terms today and the support she gave me was a blessing. It would pain me greatly if I learned that she thought she had done wrong by me in any way.

Apologies to people who I am skipping over, getting pretty overwhelmed now. If I miss you out and you would like me to reply then please inbox me?

@Datum - woman to me is a collective term that includes trans woman as women. That simple. So colloquially, if I was referring to 'women/ladies' in a room, I would also be addressing trans woman and natal women together. But I do distinguish that specifically, I am a trans woman. That is as succinct as I can be I am afraid.. You might disagree with me but I don't know how else to put it.

I just wanted to make sure that is not what you were saying. Personally, I think sexism IS used towards trans people except that it generally doesn't just come from men. It comes from women too as there are natal people from both sexes that think trans people are beneath them. Goes back to the analogy I gave in an earlier post regarding 'we don't want you' and 'well we don't want them either!'. Which is where/why I believe that women, who overwhelmingly are the predominant recipients of sexism could lend and hand in saying 'actually, you know what, it's not okay to treat someone like this'.

But I am in no way trying to minimise the importance of what feminists (and therefore women) have fought for over the last 100 years.

@FloraFox - I will agree with you, I think that natal women ARE at an increased level of risk of sexual violence but that it does still happen to trans people. But I would say that trans women are at an elevated risk of straight up getting killed or the seven shades of shit beaten out of us. Either way, it is about men exerting control and dominance over a group of people they wish to subjugate. Surely you can agree with that? Violence is violence and never okay no matter the reason or the methods used.

Having been bitten by believing a trans woman who came on here with a large violin and huge dose of woe is me, I am highly sceptical these days when trans women come here telling us sad tales and how to do feminism.

spontaneousgiventime, but it's a tactic that usually works. I'm sure we can agree that only the most naive believe anyone can change sex, so TIM fall back on their vulnerability. Not only that, but their status as the most vulnerable. That's why we have TIM murderers in female prisons - the TIM has the right to protection at the expense of women. They must be confused coming onto FWR to be told that their vulnerability is not our problem to solve.

Mumsnet is full of women not performing the role of women correctly.

Totally Flora.
Ada, like I said earlier, being a woman is evidence-based not emotional. Having female reproductive organs is the definining property of woman, and dictates, to a significant degree, a woman's interactions with the world and the course of her life. There's nothing more to it. You've been fooled by Disney movies or something. This woman feeling is something different, something we women don't have. So you're calling yourself the wrong thing. Leave our nouns alone!

natluc Are you saying a trans woman would only be raped or sexually assaulted if they pass? Not trying to argue this, it is a genuine question.

You've asked this question several times. It's important to address this because one reason women are asked to believe that "transwomen are women" is because we are told that trans identified males are at more risk of sexual violence and rape from men than women are. We are asked to feel sorry for trans identified males and award them womanhood as a protection against males.

I know you won't like me saying this but you have raised it at least twice on this thread. I don't believe that trans identified males are at more or the same risk of sexual violence than women. Although sexual violence is about control, domination and misogyny, it is also about entitlement - entitlement of men to sex from women. There are cases of punishment rapes by men against gay and gender non-conforming men but this is not the same as the pervasive and constant sexual abuse of women. To be more blunt than you will like to hear, the vast majority of men, even violent criminals, don't want to have sex with trans identified males. It's not a question of men finding a woman so sexy they want to rape her but it is a question of men feeling so entitled to sex with a woman (plus domination, control and misogyny) and also having the confidence that they can overpower a woman.

Womanhood is not a reward for trying hard to achieve it and it is not a shield for protecting TIMs from men. It is simply the state of being an adult human female. Women are subject to various aspects of societal oppression which differs from place to place and time to time in patriarchal cultures, including our own, but which has a commonality in that it is focused primarily the body - women making available their sexual, reproductive, domestic and emotional labour to men. It is manifested in the control of the female body by men / society for sex and reproduction and the use of unpaid domestic and emotional labour for the benefit of men. All men benefit from this even if they don't actively participate in it.

I don't expect you will agree with this or even acknowledge it. From my experience of having many of these discussions with TIMs, posters can spend time and careful thought explaining what being a woman means to them on here and TIMs respond along the lines of "that doesn't look like anything to me" (for Westworld fans). Your thought processes are so invested in maintaining your belief that you are a woman that you can't examine or reflect on what women are telling you in any way that challenges that belief.

You'll probably turn this around and say that I am doing the same but I think that most people reading this know that's not true. Like most posters on here, I came to this topic thinking "does it really matter? / live and let live" and only after thinking about it critically concluded that yes, it really does matter. That puts me in a very uncomfortable position as I have always been on the "right side" of social issues (including getting in fights (self-defence) with homophobes outside gay bars before many of these TRAs were born) and this issue is damaging to personal relationships that mean a lot to me. You likely won't accept this but I think many women reading this are in the same position.

*legal not illegal