Trans Park Run Deletion

Insisting transwomen are singled out with an identifying badge is transphobic

Well don't ask them to wear a badge then, we (women) don't. Transphobe.

I think I'm seeing a pattern here. I mean; I can't be sure, but....

Insisting transwomen are singled out with an identifying badge is transphobic

. Why do you want them to wear a badge?

BeUpStanding Wed 02-May-18 17:25:34
I thought the sensible suggestion was for transwomen to put F but mark it as assisted? What's wrong with that idea?

Insisting transwomen are singled out with an identifying badge is transphobic

2 women a week are murdered by their male partners in the UK. The statistics do not support the assertion that trans people are at a risk more elevated than that.

Yes, I am a trans woman, but trans women live and breath the role of woman.

What role is that, exactly?

A few people have asked this now. I'd like to know too.

trans women are at an elevated risk of straight up getting killed or the seven shades of shit beaten out of us.

fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murder-rates/

Transpeople are very unlikely to be murdered in the UK.

8 transpeople were murdered here between 2008 & 2017 and 11 transpeople murdered in Europe in 2016. Compare that to an average of two women being killed per week in the UK & that may explain a bit more why the suggestion that women should be doing the protecting hasn't gone down very well.

This is the reason that I think it a mistake for women to provide narcissistic feed to males on FWR.

It helps insofar as asking TIM about their experiences highlights how very different their lives and experiences are compared to women.

But Maybe it is just me but this idea of women as servants and "human shields" for transgender identified males creeps me right the eff out., yes I agree. The fact that they don't see why it is wrong worries me.

Before reading this thread I didn't know runs could be classified as 'assisted'. I would genuinely love to witness a husky-dog-assisted run. Sadly no dogs allowed on our course. But apart from people running with super-fast dogs, is it currently used in any other circumstances? (Sorry, no wish to derail, just idly wondering!)

@spontaneousgiventime - Hope you enjoyed your dinner. :)

@Newsofas - No, you can ask, no problem at all but I need to confirm if you mean did I think I was a gay man or gay in the sense of a trans girl being attracted to women? (I know that question is a WHOLE can of fire ants on its own.. but yeah)

Honestly.. I was asked on numerous occasions if I was gay. But at 13.. I honestly didn't have an answer, I would just sort of screech out 'I like girls!' without directly answering in the affirmative or negative. I did not have access to people or online resources to discuss this stuff so I just sat on the thought in my mind of 'something is wrong with me' until I did have the resources and access needed to explore. I think I touched on in an earlier post about how it was my dad that tried to impart on to me 'what a man should be' whereas my grandmother just let me be myself.

Actually, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I accept you as you. A discrete person, an individual. I don't need to give you a label of man or woman, because in this sense you indeed "just are". You're an Ada. I'm a Yambabe. Our biology is irrelevant to a degree. It's essential in determining some medical issues, of course, and it needs to be considered to give both of us safety and protections against discrimination based on it.

I can't tell you how much I'd love to live in that world! But I don't. If I don't actively tell the world who I am, then people will keep telling me I'm someone I'm not. And as nice as it would be to worry less about this label, having the wrong one repeatedly stuck on me is a really unpleasant experience that I'm keen to avoid.

That is the world feminists are aiming for (sorry Rat, most feminists, I do not speak for all feminists obvs.). The concept of gender is damaging to everyone.

Females completely understand being told we are someone we are not, it is a constant battle and a reason that many hate being called cis.

The whole topic is relevant to park run so we have not gone off topic.

It is also relevant to what is happening in society.

Can I ask Lucy did you ever consider yourself gay? A personal question I know but that is often the case when men say I feel like a woman they mean they are not butch etc as “men should be” - bad example I know.

Sorry.

I was eating dinner when it suddenly occurred to me, NatLuc doesn't like women discussing women's issues (judging by the posts here). NatLuc also doesn't like trans people discussing trans issues on a trans forum NatLuc doesn't like.

Make of that what you will - I have.

As far as Park run goes, women fought for womens events, TW could do the same, fight for their own spaces rather than encroach on ours.

@AngryAttackKittens - I had this whole reply typed out to further your reply but I think at this point I am just going to step back and say I apologise if a couple of times under them interchangeably. I will still reply to your message as promised but as of yet, I have not typed it and I have plans this evening.

@TERFragetteCity - As much as saying this will put me on the TRAs naughty list, personally I think that a trans woman (or man) needs to have the hormonal levels comparable to a natal person of their acquired gender/sex to not have to place themselves with the sex they were born as providing they do not still, at this point possess other characteristics that would give them an unfair advantage. In the case of running for example, that would be having longer legs than is statistically common for a natal female.

@LangCleg - Haha no problem. it was getting too loosely related back to the topic. :)

I mean if it truly was that important to people then I guess I could just not bother scanning and solely go off of the time my phone using endomondo gives me but.. I would feel like there was no point in being there.. I might as well have just done my normal 5km run not at Parkrun.

And whilst my sex might be male, my closest peers are female (natally speaking) but I don't want to go back around in circles.

Maybe it is just me but this idea of women as servants and "human shields" for transgender identified males creeps me right the eff out.

I think it is a lack of understanding from many users on the likes of MN that is the problem for not seeing that there are clear parallels between the issues faced and that instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us.

This is the reason that I think it a mistake for women to provide narcissistic feed to males on FWR.

From earlier:
one person running as f instead of male who finishes mid table is not preventing yourself from seeing how you do compared to z200 other women

It is if they finish ahead of you and push you down the rankings. Which are not 'an arbitrary position of order'; they're based on actual finishing order and are published on the website and emailed out to participants after every parkrun.

Anyway, who's to say every person running as f instead of male will finish mid-table? The faster they are, the more women they will displace in the rankings. Where do you draw the line? Would you say 'it doesn't matter' as long as they're slower than 30 minutes, 27 minutes, 25 minutes... what about 20 minutes? Anyone registered as a woman and finishing in under 21 minutes in my age category, at my local course, would automatically go to 1st place in the table of 'Top performances by [age/sex category] athletes at [location] parkrun', also published on the website. Which if they were biologically male would be massively unfair on the women currently at the top, well all the women full stop, really, but particularly the top two who run almost every week and are (quite rightly) proud of their achievements. It also makes it that little bit harder for those of us further down the table to achieve our own modest goal of moving up a few places!

Or, again, since apparently the organizers are very helpful and response, a quick "hey, would you mind adding a category for trans women/trans men?"

I thought the sensible suggestion was for transwomen to put F but mark it as assisted? What's wrong with that idea? Even if you yourself don't think you are assisted, as it's 'only a run and not a race', surely it does no harm for the transwoman and shows respect to the women into whose category you want to belong.

I sort of get that a man can feel ‘not like a man’ but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they ‘feel like a woman’

Perhaps the sad truth is that what they feel like is neither man nor woman but something else, some ‘other’ that society has not yet fully grasped.

So in the context of a run that is organised without the intent of being competitive, where is the harm? It is not like me finishing before anyone else has robbed them of their time, they would have still finished in the time they finished in. I am not truly skewing any data other than an arbitrary position of order.

Thanks for bringing us back on topic. I appreciate it.

Parkrun is not inter-participant competitive and is inclusive in that is welcomes everyone, regardless of age, sex, fitness or talent. But it does encourage participants to be competitive with themselves in the sense of motivating them to improve their times and thus fitness levels by comparing themselves with their peers by age and sex.

The positions aren't arbitrary: they are designed to enable particpants to compare themselves to the best, average and worst of their peers. If they are not doing that, this functionality is skewed and does not give an accurate picture.

Oops. That looked like it was dismissing your point, Flora, whereas it's just my slow typing.

To be clear, Trans women competing with men makes no sense.

At what point does it make no sense?

Man saying 'I am a woman' one morning
Man putting female jogging gear on
Man putting female jogging gear on and make up on
Man putting female jogging gear on, and has an appointment to see a doctor
Man after seeing a doctor but no referral
Man with referral
Man with referral and appointment for hormones
Man taking hormones for one day
Man having taken hormones for one week
Man having taken hormones for one month
Man having taken hormones for one year
Man having had surgery

Where does the man transform to a woman?

I'd use it casually, I suppose, in the sense of 'women's wear departments' -- that is, a place to buy clothing not just fitted to female bodies (mostly 6-foot boobless wonders, but I digress) but also clothes traditionally/culturally/stereotypically aimed at women.

I'd also use it for 'women's roles' in stage plays and dance steps, women's hairstyles, that sort of thing, without any deep thought about it.

Anyhow. Hope you continue to enjoy Parkrun, NatLuc, however slowly. If you get better at it, consider putting yourself in the Assisted category so's not to trample on other people's placings. Running is great for reducing existential angst.

Whilst natal women ARE female, trans women are not. I agree, but 'women' is not a biological term. Female is. You would not say 'that woman lion' You say 'female'. Of course 'woman' can be used in a social sense? I don't think I am being unreasonable to say that?

A female lion is a lioness, a female hawk is a hen, a female hippo is a cow, a female dog is a bitch, a female kangaroo is a jill, a female human is a woman.

You haven't elaborated on the social sense of being a woman despite being asked several times.